Author Topic: Looking for an F4U and F6F trainer  (Read 1534 times)

Offline Navy84

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Looking for an F4U and F6F trainer
« on: February 19, 2011, 10:48:42 AM »
My in-game name is Navy84 and I live in the central time zone. I am a retired Navy Chief with a love for the Navy iron. I've read all the trainers pages and have the BFM down but the application in ACM leaves something to be desired. Also would like some help with getting these rigs turned around. I look over my shoulder as I'm turning through a merge to see the very plane I'm flying has already reversed course and is locked on for the kill. I would like to get to the point that I can have a decent chance for survival after a merge instead of relying on bouncing a con to get a kill. Any help or suggestions would be appreciated. I am available after 6pm CST most week nights and can make weekend plans if I need to. Thanks in advance for your help. <S> and look forward to seeing you in the virtual sky.

LT. Navy84
VF-17 Jolly Rogers

It is the duty of every patriot to protect his country from it's government - Thomas Paine

Offline Muzzy

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Re: Looking for an F4U and F6F trainer
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2011, 10:27:50 PM »
Chief,

Learning the merge is probably one of the most difficult things to pick up in AH.  A lot depends on timing and experience, and while I'm certainly no expert, I can give you some pointers:

1. You want to start your move between 1.5k and 800 out, depending on plane type and rate of closure.  The Corsair and Hellcat can generally out turn anything they can't outrun (and vice versa).  So against FW-190's and Mustangs you should be able to turn before they can come around on you.  Good turning planes like the N1K1 and Spitfire will be more of a challenge.

2. Learn to track your enemy behind you while you're merging.  You should be able to track the con through the back/up, up, and forward up views as you are making your turn.

3. In general, an Immelman turn will beat a flat turn, although this may not be the case against a quick turner.

4. Sometimes against quick turning opponents your best bet is to extend or climb far enough away so you can make your turn and re-merge.  This will only work if you have a good speed advantage.

5. In order to learn you have to practice.  The training area and dueling areas are the best places to find opponents to practice merge tactics.

6. Knowing the capabilities of your opponents is a huge advantage in dueling situations.  Read up on each plane type and take them up for a spin when you have time.

7. Duels are rarely won on a single merge.  They are won after a series of merges leaves one of you in a bad situation.  The winner is the one who makes the best choices and flies the cleanest.

Feel free to message me if you have any other questions.


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Wng Cdr, No. 2 Tactical Bomber Group, RAF, "Today's Target" Scenario. "You maydie, but you will not be bored!"

Offline pervert

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Re: Looking for an F4U and F6F trainer
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2011, 10:45:41 PM »
You'd be looking for a trainer like BigRat, just shoot him a private message on the forum.  :salute

Offline shiv

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Re: Looking for an F4U and F6F trainer
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2011, 10:53:34 PM »
Fly the blue planes you gonna need to learn the rolling scissors:

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,238173.0.html

And make sure you turn off stall limiter also.

« Last Edit: February 19, 2011, 10:55:32 PM by shiv »
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Offline JOACH1M

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Re: Looking for an F4U and F6F trainer
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2011, 11:17:51 PM »
Fly the blue planes you gonna need to learn the rolling scissors:

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,238173.0.html

And make sure you turn off stall limiter also.


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Offline shiv

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Re: Looking for an F4U and F6F trainer
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2011, 11:27:54 PM »
BigRat taught me, i am still just a student.  Ren before that. Any of the trainers will put you on right track though.

I applaud your plane choices, lotta fun to fly.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2011, 11:34:42 PM by shiv »
You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.


Offline Saxman

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Re: Looking for an F4U and F6F trainer
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2011, 12:12:22 AM »
The nice thing about the F4U and F6F is that what you learn from one will apply directly to the other, as both aircraft have very similar flight characteristics. The F4U has slight advantages in many categories, but the difference is rather negligible for the unperked Hogs (the Charlie drastically outmatches the F6F in firepower, while the -4 is a beast at a whole other level). It really only leaves you with the individual quirks of managing the fuel distribution and sight picture to learn. As far as the Corsair goes:

1) Rudder, rudder, rudder, rudder, rudder. I can NOT emphasize effective use of the rudder enough. I will even argue--and have, time and again--that the rudder may be even MORE important to effective use of the Corsair than the flaps. The rudder on the Corsair is HUGE and has a TON of authority at all airspeeds, even at high speeds where most aircraft have almost no rudder authority at all. The rudder can be invaluable for rolling down on top of an enemy out of the high-yo or vertical extension, and I've surprised more than my share of out-of-phase opponents by skidding a shot in they didn't think I had. Skids, slips, hammerheads, using the rudder to ride the edge of a spin, and to tighten up your roll (especially if you need to roll to the right in low speed, high-power situations).

2) Keep in mind: EVERYONE knows about the Corsair's flaps. Yes, they're some of the best flaps in the game. It also means that everyone ALWAYS looks for the Corsair to try getting slow and putting the flaps down. Without question, the first and universal thing I see in threads asking how to BEAT the Corsair is: "Get him slow and force him to deploy his flaps, then use his poor acceleration and climb against him to leave him wallowing." Personally, I find that the Corsair is even BETTER in more of a mid-speed range (no slower than 250 IAS, up to around 350). Remember, the Corsair is a great turner with flaps, but you have a LOT of tools at higher speeds that you should NOT neglect. The F4U's high-speed maneuverability is exceptional, and while her acceleration and rate of climb isn't great (excluding the -4) she holds on to E tenaciously and can zoom very well. DEFINITELY understand how to handle the Corsair in a full-flaps turn-fight, but don't give up your speed if you don't have to.

3) Like Muzzy said; What you can't out-turn you can outrun, and what you can't outrun you can out-turn. The Corsair has EXCEPTIONAL engagement flexibility. She may not be the best at any one type of engagement, but is versatile and can do them all well. To a point--so long as you manage your E state properly--she can even swing between E-Fighting and turn-fighting at will. Keep an eye out for Ki-84s, however. In my experience, a well-flown Frank is the single most difficult opponent for a Corsair to tangle with.

4) As shiv said, the Rolling Scissors is one of the Corsair's best tricks in the bag. She's not necessarily UNBEATABLE, but she's VERY good at it. Whether you're out in front and want to reverse on your opponent, or your opponent is and tries to do the same to you, the F4U is well-equipped to win that fight.

5) Fuel management is VERY important, particularly for the F4U-1 and 1A which have additional internal tanks. In the 1 and 1A I usually take off with 100% internal fuel a base or two back from the fight. I then burn in this order: Left to 50%, Right to 75%, Left to 25%, Right to 50%, then switch to Main until it's dry. This serves a number of purposes: First, it gives you a nice reserve if your main fuel is perforated (and Main Fuel always seems to be one of the first things to get damaged on the Corsairs...). Second, It gives you a nice reserve of "Go Home" gas. This distribution should allow you plenty of fuel in the wings to RTB, particularly if you need to run like hell and can't afford to reduce speed for cruise. Finally, it helps balance the aircraft and makes her more stable (due to the added weight in the right wing countering engine torque). With the other three Hogs I go 100% internal with a DT or two. The downside of the DTs, however, is that they heavily impact the aircraft's flight performance (more so than the additional fuel weight of the 1 and 1A). And while you can cut away the tanks if needed, you also lose your reserve (can't tell you how many -4's I've ditched after my main fuel got single-pinged by a .303 :-P ).

6) You've got good guns and plenty of ammo to boot. Don't be afraid to take any shot opportunity you have, even if it's a brief high-deflection Hail Mary. The .50cal don't have the individual punch a bank of cannon has, but if you hit your opponent in convergence and at the proper range, even short bursts can be lethal. I've taken wings off P-47s with half-second bursts.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Muzzy

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Re: Looking for an F4U and F6F trainer
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2011, 01:08:36 AM »
A couple of notes on the Hellcat:

1. It's a very stable ride and not as likely to stall as the Corsair.

2. It climbs better than the Hog, especially when fully loaded.  It's my ride of choice for dive bombing off a CV for that reason.

3. It turns very well for a fighter its size.  I once tracked a P 51B for an extended period of time and had no trouble keeping with it both in the vertical and in turns.  While it won't out turn a Spit, it can stay with it long enough to get the kill, especially during high speed maneuvers.



CO 111 Sqdn Black Arrows

Wng Cdr, No. 2 Tactical Bomber Group, RAF, "Today's Target" Scenario. "You maydie, but you will not be bored!"

Offline shiv

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Re: Looking for an F4U and F6F trainer
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2011, 01:13:54 AM »
A couple of notes on the Hellcat:

1. It's a very stable ride and not as likely to stall as the Corsair.

2. It climbs better than the Hog, especially when fully loaded.  It's my ride of choice for dive bombing off a CV for that reason.

3. It turns very well for a fighter its size.  I once tracked a P 51B for an extended period of time and had no trouble keeping with it both in the vertical and in turns.  While it won't out turn a Spit, it can stay with it long enough to get the kill, especially during high speed maneuvers.



Well, yes, all your points. Except corsair kills hellcat pretty much every time. And  once it gets down to scissors corsair huge advantage.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2011, 01:16:15 AM by shiv »
You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.


Offline Noah17

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Re: Looking for an F4U and F6F trainer
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2011, 07:51:01 AM »
I almost exclusively fly the F4U; it is the plane that I chose as I came to AH as a complete newb. I had never flown any type of flight sim before. That was June of 2009 and only now do I consider myself to be good in the plane (although Shiv in his -1 schooled me about a month ago lol). The point I make about bringing up that time frame is IMO the F4U is one of the most difficult planes to learn to fly (I chose it for sentimental reasons only) but, is one of the best non perked planes.

It is true (most of the time not all) what you can't out turn you can out run but, at what altitude? What speed? You can look at the speed/turn/climb charts and they are helpful but there is plenty of information that they can't give and only becoming good a judging your E state vs. your opponent and the experience of getting you "clock cleaned" by them will teach you what to do at the next merge. Recording your fights and viewing the film later will be a big help. Fight and fight often and, when you die try not to get frustrated because some of these people have been in flight sims for more than a decade. Vertical turns, keeping your E high and, lead turns where you're avoiding the temptation to take a shot at the first (usually difficult) opportunity are IMO the most important keys to winning a fight in any aircraft especially the F4U.

Another area is stick scaling, the F4U was called the Ensign Eliminator for good reason; It was a difficult plane to learn to fly (hmm sounds like AH) because of its massive torque and stall characteristics. It's very easy for a new person to constantly go in to a stall or flat spin because your controls are overly sensitive. Do a search for examples of how others scale their controls, this might help you.
Gunnery is obviously important and is art not science. The best advice I can give here is to estimate what distance to lead a target and lead it much more than that to let the bandit fly through your stream; trying not to pull G's while shooting.

BigRat, Shiv or, MtnMan are the guys to try to get with in the TA. If you're interested in joining a squad that flys only US Navy Iron, take a look at our website:WWW.VF17.ORG. The F4U and F6F are our planes of choice.

 :salute



Offline Saxman

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Re: Looking for an F4U and F6F trainer
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2011, 09:20:56 AM »
Well, yes, all your points. Except corsair kills hellcat pretty much every time. And  once it gets down to scissors corsair huge advantage.

There's also been some contention over whether or not the F6F SHOULD out-climb the Corsair, (some flight tests state otherwise, by a not-so-insignificant margin) but that's a debate for another thread.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Navy84

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Re: Looking for an F4U and F6F trainer
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2011, 09:41:32 AM »
Thanks gentlemen for all of your very informative responses. I will shoot big rat a PM to get some basic training. It sounds like all of you are experienced in the hog and share my interest it it. I hope I get a chance to fly with and against each of you for the education I will recieve from the experience. <S> and fly high Aces.

LT. Navy84
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It is the duty of every patriot to protect his country from it's government - Thomas Paine

Offline Big Rat

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Re: Looking for an F4U and F6F trainer
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2011, 08:08:44 PM »
My ears were burning :lol

Once you learn the Corsair you can then refer to is as the Hog :D  The great thing about the Hog is it's versatility, very few planes are close to as versatile.  You can go from B&Z to T&B almost instantaneously and with equal ability.  It's not the greatest at either, but it's fairly good at both.  There are two weaknesses you must always keep in mind when flying the hog and always guard against having them exploited.  Poor climb and poor acceleration, always try to come into a fight with plenty of alt and speed, especially in multi con environments.  If you are a lazy pilot a Hog is not for you, to fly correctly it's an extremely busy plane, lots of flap, throttle, and rudder work to fly effectively.  Also knowing how to maintain energy is also crucial, given it's weaknesses E building is a slow process.  Once learned it's an extremely deadly opponent against just about anything given co energy states.

 :salute
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Offline Ardy123

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Re: Looking for an F4U and F6F trainer
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2011, 01:33:30 AM »
My in-game name is Navy84 and I live in the central time zone. I am a retired Navy Chief with a love for the Navy iron. I've read all the trainers pages and have the BFM down but the application in ACM leaves something to be desired. Also would like some help with getting these rigs turned around. I look over my shoulder as I'm turning through a merge to see the very plane I'm flying has already reversed course and is locked on for the kill. I would like to get to the point that I can have a decent chance for survival after a merge instead of relying on bouncing a con to get a kill. Any help or suggestions would be appreciated. I am available after 6pm CST most week nights and can make weekend plans if I need to. Thanks in advance for your help. <S> and look forward to seeing you in the virtual sky.

TC is also an excellent resource and can provide tons of help.
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Offline HighGTrn

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Re: Looking for an F4U and F6F trainer
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2011, 06:48:04 PM »
I don't fly the Corsair much but I've been beat by them many times so I'm going to give you another perspective. First and foremost, any time I see a Corsair, I always treat it with lots of respect. I've seen some people do things in it that I thought were impossible. I think they were right about the rudder. In fact, I think the reason that I've seen some of the unbelievable moves it can do is because of that dang, huge bellybutton rudder.

A favorite Corsair tactic is to lure you into a rolling scissor where they get that nose back around on you when they are at the top of the scissor and you are at the bottom coming back up again. I've watched some of my films when this happened and actually saw the Corsair skid, roll, and dive at the same time. Its like it had thrust vectors or something. 109s are real good at this too.

I've also seen some amazing things defensively that a Corsair can do. If you ever fought against AKDogg, you know what I mean.

So what's my take on flying the bent wing wonder? Seems like you gotta fly it very smooth and deliberate. It seems to hide its energy well so take that into consideration. Seems like on a high yo yo, the plane can be right back around in a flash. Finally, snap shots in that thing are amazing so take every advantage to shoot.

As for the Hellcat, if it weren't for the terrible views.... Most good Hellcat sticks I encounter seem to fly it like a cross between 38 and spitfire. These guys take the fight to the vertical and then do that turny, flap, on your bellybutton thing...
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