Magic Flaps!!

[Motherland]

Well... like I said, it depends on speed. The talk about G models is varied and can be argued in another person's own opinion against a P-51, it won't always be the same.

Sustained climb rate is not dependent on speed.
Sustained climb rate is also a quantity, a measurement. It can't be argued. From the Bf 109F-4 onward, all Bf 109s outclimb the P51D in a sustained climb at all altitudes.

[dirtdart]

****please note.... my points on the p51 modeling were sarcasm hinted at all of the comments folks have said over the years...

[VAMPIRE 2?]

sector nine, thank you for your impute. but I'm looking for actual p-51 data, VS toon p-51

[AWwrgwy]

well one was the flaps which has been confirmed and already noted, maybe just not enough of an issue to be recognized or addressed just yet.

nothing negative about the power or thrust, I adjust fuel levels pertaining to the type of flying I would be preparing to do.

but there is speculation and I have also noticed a few things about the wing loading and how the lift is generated with the wing. the p-51 seems to suffer greatly at the altitudes it presumably is able to excel at. (this could be particularly a mix of thrust to weight and wing coding)  also when the flaps are deployed generally since the flaps are deploying on the underside of the wing there are two factors coming into play, first the one everyone knows, is an increase in lift of the aircraft as a whole. which we all know all too well. but the other factor that seems to be missing is the drag direction caused from the flaps. yes the planes slow down because of the the drag. NOTED.  but the drag on the under side of the wing should pull the nose in a downward fashion, while lifting the entire craft.    I have flown both a Cessna 152 "high wing" and a Piper Warrior II  "low wing" to verify how this should look and feel.  I realize that wwII planes are by no means similar to these two crafts I stated, but aerodynamics apply the same to all crafts.    Like I said before tho I'm not the expert here, just wanting to be informal of speculation, only in hopes to improve the realism of this AWESOME game!   I also come to realize that there are p-51 haters and lovers in the game,  I like the p-51, but I remain neutral on the opinion aspects. I just want my plane to perform IN COMPARISON at LEAST to the other crafts in the game. ie. if one plane flew xxx ft at xxx speed in wwII and it also dose in game... BUT the p-51 flew xxx alt at xxx speed, but not quite to that degree in-game.   make sense?

Could it be the auto-trim negating the effect you are expecting? The nose down, aircraft lifting?

Just a thought.


wrongway

[THRASH99]

Sustained climb rate is not dependent on speed.
Sustained climb rate is also a quantity, a measurement. It can't be argued. From the Bf 109F-4 onward, all Bf 109s outclimb the P51D in a sustained climb at all altitudes.

Ok...the F will because of its power-weight, the G models are some bit of an argument, I'm not going to go there, the K4 I know out climbs pony. Have you heard of Bud Anderson's most rememorable fight he encountered with a 109? If not, here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXOCKEotmoU , ignore what they say about slow turn because I already know that's wrong, 109 out corners a pony slow, wait till about 4:20 then it starts. I'm guessing the 109 had to have been a G6, not to sure. Just because all 109s were great at climbing doesn't mean they always won, they say the 109 had better climb at "some altitudes", not all. For example, your saying the 109 can out climb a pony, that's like saying a 109 can out climb a P-38 every time, don't think that's going to happen. You also have to remember that the 109 became more nose heavy throughout the war, so as it's in a climb fight, gets really slow, the plane tends to want to pitch down, hence "nose-heavy", it didn't keep climbing and climbing till the pilot felt like it was time to flip it over.

[VAMPIRE 2?]

Could it be the auto-trim negating the effect you are expecting? The nose down, aircraft lifting?

Just a thought.


wrongway

good thinking, I know exactly what you mean, but no I use manual trim on all axis and my elevator stays centered  through all aspects of flight, unless im in a high speed Jugg or F4U wich has a tendency to have a lot of lift so I trim down to stay in level flight, but again it
s stays in that position even after flaps are deployed   

[muzik]

yeah but he needs to try one that has flaps shot off! 

...and pilot armor, self sealing fuel tanks, and the other 2000 pounds of hardware the original had.

[Ack-Ack]

Now on the loop part, what speed? which model 38? which model P-51? You are starting to forget that flaps make a difference in turning fights and/or getting the angle of attack on your opponent. Now at low speed, a 38 will outturn a pony by far, at high speed, a 38 stands no chance at turning with a mustang. If a 38 and pony are both going fast (over 350), the 51 will only have to drop 1 notch of flaps to loop with a 38, at low speed, a pony might have a tough time looping with the 38. The only thing that I know can fly over 500, is the 262 and 163 over 20K, mostly the 163.  

The P-38 (G/J/L) will out turn and out loop a P-51 pretty much at any speeds and the P-38L has the ability to use its dive flaps at high speeds to aid in turning.  At low speed a P-51 will definitely have troubles trying to play the looping game with a P-38.  The P-38 can loop with just the use of flaps without any stick input needed, this allows the P-38 to keep enough energy to pretty much loop endlessly at low speeds and the Mustang wouldn't even be able to come close to matching.

ack-ack

[VAMPIRE 2?]

The P-38 (G/J/L) will out turn and out loop a P-51 pretty much at any speeds and the P-38L has the ability to use its dive flaps at high speeds to aid in turning.  At low speed a P-51 will definitely have troubles trying to play the looping game with a P-38.  The P-38 can loop with just the use of flaps without any stick input needed, this allows the P-38 to keep enough energy to pretty much loop endlessly at low speeds and the Mustang wouldn't even be able to come close to matching.

ack-ack

haven't seen you in the MA,   your not rook are you......

[dirtdart]

OK guys... my mustang comments were just compilations of what guys "whine the most about".  A mustang will never outclimb a K4 unless it's E state is wicked high.  the K4 bleeds E like our deficit climbs.  A 38 will always sustained out loop a mustang.  Etc.... 

[RTHolmes]

well one was the flaps which has been confirmed and already noted, maybe just not enough of an issue to be recognized or addressed just yet.

what about the flaps?

but the other factor that seems to be missing is the drag direction caused from the flaps. yes the planes slow down because of the the drag. NOTED.  but the drag on the under side of the wing should pull the nose in a downward fashion, while lifting the entire craft.

almost all the pilot's notes ive read describe the nose pitching up on deployment of flaps for landing (as I would expect). this is generally cancelled out by the deployment of gear, the gear's drag causing the plane to pitch down.

[Motherland]

Ok...the F will because of its power-weight, the G models are some bit of an argument, I'm not going to go there, the K4 I know out climbs pony. Have you heard of Bud Anderson's most rememorable fight he encountered with a 109? If not, here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXOCKEotmoU , ignore what they say about slow turn because I already know that's wrong, 109 out corners a pony slow, wait till about 4:20 then it starts. I'm guessing the 109 had to have been a G6, not to sure. Just because all 109s were great at climbing doesn't mean they always won, they say the 109 had better climb at "some altitudes", not all. For example, your saying the 109 can out climb a pony, that's like saying a 109 can out climb a P-38 every time, don't think that's going to happen. You also have to remember that the 109 became more nose heavy throughout the war, so as it's in a climb fight, gets really slow, the plane tends to want to pitch down, hence "nose-heavy", it didn't keep climbing and climbing till the pilot felt like it was time to flip it over.

You're not making the distinction between sustained climb and zoom climb, they're two completely different animals.

Every Bf 109 we have from the F model on has a better sustained climb rate than the P51D, period.

[VAMPIRE 2?]

what about the flaps?
  (when shot off in the down position, they still generate lift)  <---false, but they said they are broke stuck in position even though they appear missing.


almost all the pilot's notes ive read describe the nose pitching up on deployment of flaps for landing (as I would expect)<---FALSE  in all conventional real life air craft the nose pitches down word due to the center of lift being pushed further back on the wings.... this is generally cancelled out by the deployment of gear, the gear's drag causing the plane to pitch down.

yes the gear also causes  drag on the lower quarters of the plan causing it to pitch down.

back to the flaps. when the flaps are deployed: the wings begin to create more lift increasing the lift ratio verses gravity. yes? thus making the wing stable at lower speeds. but the nose pitches downward.   but in aces high it is pitching up

[VAMPIRE 2?]

Can I invite Hitech to this thread to perhaps shed some light on this "flap" discussion? I mean there's no use in trying to point it out if the coding can't be changed or if it would be conflicting in a way with the other flight dynamics. I'm sure we can all agree with real life can't always be replicated in every witch way. at least not yet lol  but I'm still digging for graphs and charts but busy with other things mostly, so don't wait on me.... 

<S>   

[Ack-Ack]

Can I invite Hitech to this thread to perhaps shed some light on this "flap" discussion? I mean there's no use in trying to point it out if the coding can't be changed or if it would be conflicting in a way with the other flight dynamics. I'm sure we can all agree with real life can't always be replicated in every witch way. at least not yet lol  but I'm still digging for graphs and charts but busy with other things mostly, so don't wait on me.... 

<S>   

Honestly, there really is "no flaps" issue other than the damage modeling of the flaps.  Remember that flaps are not the same for all planes, for example the Spitfire and the P-38.  Totally different flap design and function when used, on some planes flaps were to help with landing and on others to help with maneuverability.

ack-ack