Author Topic: Relative dangers of nuclear power  (Read 5514 times)

Offline DREDIOCK

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Re: Relative dangers of nuclear power
« Reply #45 on: March 12, 2011, 01:40:34 PM »
Off shoot from the Japanese quakes/nuke trouble thread.

I'll start with this :  Nuke has a bad rap as being "not worth the risk". As E.G. GhostFT argues: But can GhostFT and others anti-nuke quantify this comparison between nuclear and other power sources like coal? 

A study by Harvard University found about 100,000 cases of premature death annually due to exposure to pollution, and tens of millions of cases of asthma attacks, chronic bronchitis, casualty ward admissions and various other ills.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5174391/

... Chernobyl: about 50 dead and a few thousand badly affected.

Nuclear could take coal's place faster than solar or wind.  Waiting for solar/wind would mean .. something like millions of deaths more due to coal.


The counter to this argument of course is. How do we know many of these same people woudnt have come down with the same diseases?
2 examples are. My father in law drank heavily and smoked cigars every day for 60 years. Lived to be 84.
A lady I used to work with was the epitome of a health freak. Marathon runner and life long athlete. Never smoked,only had the occasional drink She died of lung cancer at age 50.

Each form of energy has its inherent risks. The problem with nuclear its what to do with the waste. And in the event of something really going wrong. it can REALLY go wrong.
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Offline AKH

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Re: Relative dangers of nuclear power
« Reply #46 on: March 12, 2011, 01:43:11 PM »
Lies, damned lies, and statistics...

Quote
Industry, government, and the military have systematically suppressed or manipulated epidemiologic research showing detrimental effects on human health from accidental or occupational exposures to ionizing radiation. This leads to conflicts of interest and compromised integrity among scientists in the radiation health establishment, it stifles dissemination of “unwelcome” findings and endangers public health. Key words: radiation health effects; research censorship; conflicts of interest; scientific whistleblowers; Chernobyl; Three Mile Island.
Manipulating Public Health Research: The Nuclear and Radiation Health Establishments, RUDI H. NUSSBAUM, Professor Emeritus of Physics and Environmental
Sciences, Portland State University, Portland, OR
http://web.me.com/rdupuy/APLP/Dossier_Nucl%C3%A9aire/Entr%C3%A9es/2007/10/2_Nuclear_Radiation_Health_Manipulated_files/IJOEH_1303_Nussbaum.pdf

Quote
The accumulated experience of the past six decades provides ample evidence of adverse health effects in workers in the nuclear fuel cycle, the potential for disastrous accidents that lead to widespread environmental contamination, the unresolved problems of permanent and secure storage of high-level radioactive wastes, and the extraordinarily high costs of building additional nuclear power generation facilities. Some of these problems are ignored in the current public discourse, perhaps because of the immediacy of the need to solve the problems of carbon-based fuel. Given the availability of alternative carbon-free and low-carbon options and the potential to develop more efficient renewable technologies, it seems evident that public health would be better served in the long term by these alternatives than by increasing the number of nuclear power plants in the United States and the rest of the world.
Nuclear Power and Public Health, Richard W. Clapp,  Department of Environmental Health,  Boston University
http://www.ehponline.org/docs/2005/113-11/editorial.html
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Offline moot

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Re: Relative dangers of nuclear power
« Reply #47 on: March 12, 2011, 01:50:25 PM »
I actually started this thread so Rolex and other people from Japan would get a breather from off topic arguments.  Even if I am pro nuclear right now, what I personally am convinced of isn't that nuclear fission (btw another example of public paranoia WRT anything nuclear?  Fusion is nuclear.  But it couldn't possibly be called nuclear cause too many people would go "blue screen of death") is "safe" but that it's a better alternative to coal.

Another minor but significant issue for me is the ridiculous amount of public paranoia.  Just because coal seems more harmless ("just cinder flakes") and nuclear radiation is some kind of "unreal" magic thing that people don't know anything about and don't understand and can't even see or smell or taste >> fear.  Another win for the luddites.

What I personally put in first place right now for replacing coal, and possibly wind and solar (IMO wind is way too weak, solar might take too long to become efficient and non polluting enough), is thorium fission.

Lies, damned lies, and statistics...
Manipulating Public Health Research: The Nuclear and Radiation Health Establishments, RUDI H. NUSSBAUM, Professor Emeritus of Physics and Environmental
Sciences, Portland State University, Portland, OR
http://web.me.com/rdupuy/APLP/Dossier_Nucl%C3%A9aire/Entr%C3%A9es/2007/10/2_Nuclear_Radiation_Health_Manipulated_files/IJOEH_1303_Nussbaum.pdf
Nuclear Power and Public Health, Richard W. Clapp,  Department of Environmental Health,  Boston University
http://www.ehponline.org/docs/2005/113-11/editorial.html

That's just incredible, but I'll read it.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2011, 01:53:20 PM by moot »
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Offline grizz441

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Re: Relative dangers of nuclear power
« Reply #48 on: March 12, 2011, 01:53:26 PM »
How can anyone bring up Chernobyl and Three Mile Island as examples of why nuclear power is not a good idea?  Archaic designs.  Chernobyl was just a terrible design with a horribly unsatisfactory level of reliability to begin with.  TMI was probably a combination of that and employees that were not properly trained.  So much has changed in design, understanding, training, that it would take a 500-year type event like a 8.9 magnitude earthquake to force the plant into 3rd or 4th level safety systems to control the reaction.  

TBH, I think the main reason people are anti Nuclear is because of the connotation with the word "Nuclear".  If you called them High Temperature Steam Generators it would be a different story.

Offline Shuffler

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Re: Relative dangers of nuclear power
« Reply #49 on: March 12, 2011, 01:56:10 PM »
thats exsactly what i was talking with moot,
its just not secure. In germany 126,000 barrels of radioactive waste, some of which are leaking where found at
the Asse II waste storage facility. Now ask the people what live around/near Asse.
Securely store hot radioactive waste for hundreds of thousands of years, sure! lol

Barrels??? That would be medical waste more than likely.
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Offline Lepape2

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Re: Relative dangers of nuclear power
« Reply #50 on: March 12, 2011, 02:00:16 PM »
I actually started this thread so Rolex and other people from Japan would get a breather from off topic arguments.  Even if I am pro nuclear right now, what I personally am convinced of isn't that nuclear fission (btw another example of public paranoia WRT anything nuclear?  Fusion is nuclear.  But it couldn't possibly be called nuclear cause too many people would go "blue screen of death") is "safe" but that it's a better alternative to coal.

Another minor but significant issue for me is the ridiculous amount of public paranoia.  Just because coal seems more harmless ("just cinder flakes") and nuclear radiation is some kind of "unreal" magic thing that people don't know anything about and don't understand and can't even see or smell or taste >> fear.  Another win for the luddites.

What I personally put in first place right now for replacing coal, and possibly wind and solar (IMO wind is way too weak, solar might take too long to become efficient and non polluting enough), is thorium fission.
That's just incredible, but I'll read it.

That was so well said. But like your thorium fission, I'd still prefer Fusion of deuterium/tritium:
http://www.iter.org/mach
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Offline Gh0stFT

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Re: Relative dangers of nuclear power
« Reply #51 on: March 12, 2011, 02:02:23 PM »
TBH, I think the main reason people are anti Nuclear is because of the connotation with the word "Nuclear".  If you called them High Temperature Steam Generators it would be a different story.

absolutely not true, its the opposite today most of the anti-nuclear people i know, know much more about the whole technique & the danger.
How can you compare it to a high temp steam generator??? absolutely wrong, just stop the fire, open all valves and your ok...
This just dont work with a real Nuclear Plant, does it??
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Offline moot

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Re: Relative dangers of nuclear power
« Reply #52 on: March 12, 2011, 02:05:04 PM »
ITER is a science project.  Not that fusion won't happen, but commercially feasible fusion's not going to come as a tokamak formula like ITER.  

In the mean time you have fission solutions like Thorium with no risk of meltdown, less waste, less proliferation risks, less capital cost, less fuel consumption and in fact enough fuel to last us a thousand years or more.. I vaguely remember tens of thousands of years as the order of magnitude.
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Offline Shuffler

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Re: Relative dangers of nuclear power
« Reply #53 on: March 12, 2011, 02:05:30 PM »
absolutely not true, its the opposite today most of the anti-nuclear people i know, know much more about the whole technique & the danger.
How can you compare it to a high temp steam generator??? absolutely wrong, just stop the fire, open all valves and your ok...
This just dont work with a real Nuclear Plant, does it??

Maybe they know... but you sure don't seem to.


Super heated steam is a different animal than just steam. Not to mention the explosion from expanding gases. The same reason when we pressure test anything we do it with water..... not air.

If your worried about safety just use running water and wear a life vest. :D
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Offline grizz441

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Re: Relative dangers of nuclear power
« Reply #54 on: March 12, 2011, 02:06:26 PM »
absolutely not true, its the opposite today most of the anti-nuclear people i know, know much more about the whole technique & the danger.
How can you compare it to a high temp steam generator??? absolutely wrong, just stop the fire, open all valves and your ok...
This just dont work with a real Nuclear Plant, does it??

I never compared it to anything, all I said was that the name "Nuclear" is the main source of paranoia of people that are scared of it.   When you hear nuclear you picture bombs going off, buildings be destroyed, evil commies, cold war, so of course it's a knee jerk reaction thing.

This latest disaster I'm sure will provide for more reliable systems in future designs or secondary systems that will be able to cool the plant if the power grid goes down.


Offline Shuffler

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Re: Relative dangers of nuclear power
« Reply #55 on: March 12, 2011, 02:07:36 PM »
That was so well said. But like your thorium fission, I'd still prefer Fusion of deuterium/tritium:
http://www.iter.org/mach
(Image removed from quote.)

I saw that very thing on a wall inside one of the pyramids. The only difference is it had some being sitting in it. :D
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Offline Karnak

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Re: Relative dangers of nuclear power
« Reply #56 on: March 12, 2011, 02:11:15 PM »
The Fukushima plant is over 40 years old.  There are much better designs now.  The Chinese have developed a "pebble bed" reactor that will not melt down if the water is drained out of it.
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Offline Gh0stFT

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Re: Relative dangers of nuclear power
« Reply #57 on: March 12, 2011, 02:21:26 PM »
When you hear nuclear you picture bombs going off, buildings be destroyed, ...

grizzz441 i know what you mean but to be honest, what happened today? on tv you see explosion at a nuclear plant, buildings destroyed,
20km Evacuation zone, 300 000 been evacuated from homes ... - what do you expect from people who dont know
much about it? do you really think it will change there view to "oh, but it looks safe".
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Offline warhed

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Re: Relative dangers of nuclear power
« Reply #58 on: March 12, 2011, 02:27:46 PM »
Wow, I'm not going to be able to respond to some of this, nor do I think it would matter.

I've seen the recurring theme of shutting a reactor down, and how you can't do it.
The last refueling outage I was in, we shut down our reactor in less than 12 hours.  And that was not a scram.

We are not running out of fuel for nuclear plants, I saw a figure that we only had 50 years left.  A lot of nuclear power plants in the U.S. are burning old Soviet nuclear weapons.  A section of fuel in a common 30-40 year old reactor lasts for 6 years.  The newer design for plants would see refueling happening even less frequent.  We're not going to be in danger of running out of fuel anytime soon, plants will be undergoing decommission long before there's a fuel shortage.

About two years ago I was able to look at some designs for a new Japanese reactor.  They used a lake on top of a mountain for emergency cooling water.  Had that design been used, in the current disaster, the reactor would of been much less of a threat of melting down.   All the more evidence our aging nuclear plants (100 civilian in the USA) will not last forever, and we need a viable replacement soon.

Nuclear power plants produce very very little nuclear waste in the form of spent fuel.  Every plant in the U.S. contains every ounce of nuclear fuel they have ever burned.  I am only aware of a few plants who had to build new spent fuel pools to store excess.  While we still don't have a single location to store all of our spent fuel, we haven't run out of room on plant properties yet.  Although, I'd feel much better if all our of nuclear waste was in a central location, secured, and monitored, rather than located at 100 separate locations in this country alone.  Spent fuel does not last forever, it only takes a few hundred years to reach the same radioactive level of soil.  Non-spent fuel nuclear waste generally will reach background levels in a fraction of that time.  Someone mentioned the Romans or something having not left us with a nuclear waste burden, even if they had, it would not be an issue anymore, no excess radiation would be emitted from their waste.

Lies, damned lies, and statistics...
Manipulating Public Health Research: The Nuclear and Radiation Health Establishments, RUDI H. NUSSBAUM, Professor Emeritus of Physics and Environmental
Sciences, Portland State University, Portland, OR
http://web.me.com/rdupuy/APLP/Dossier_Nucl%C3%A9aire/Entr%C3%A9es/2007/10/2_Nuclear_Radiation_Health_Manipulated_files/IJOEH_1303_Nussbaum.pdf
Nuclear Power and Public Health, Richard W. Clapp,  Department of Environmental Health,  Boston University
http://www.ehponline.org/docs/2005/113-11/editorial.html


What health effects?  No one in the U.S. has died from radiation exposure at a plant.  Not workers, not people living close to a nuke, no one.  Where are all these horrible health effects?  My own step father has been in reactors for close to 40 years.  When he started, they barely monitored the radiation they took in, and literally walked around naked when working close to the reactor.  I've been through 4 refueling outages now, the biggest doses you will receive during operation.  I have yet to even come close to the limit the government gives me, and only once needed an extension for the limit the industry gives me.  (5 Rem and 2 Rem a year respectively).  
Also in the last article you linked, it mentions we need to build renewable resource power plants, there hasn't yet been a renewable resource that can come close to what nuclear power can output.  It would take an area the size of Kentucky filled with wind farms to equal one or two nuclear plants.  Not only that, our grid would not be capable of supporting that kind of infrastructure.
I am 100% solar, wind, and water, but they are not a viable replacement for nuclear or coal.  So we are left with this, Coal plants pollute, Coal mines destroy water system, mountains, etc.  They also need to be refueled constantly, they refuel as they burn fuel.  A nuclear plant takes one truckload of fuel, and that lasts for 6 years.

The burning of nuclear fuel releases nothing but hot water into the environment.  We don't leak radiation, we don't dump chemicals out to sea.  The only reason most nuclear plants have cooling towers at all, is we were worried of the effect of dumping clean hot water into rivers and lakes.  The best fishing in all of Lake Erie is a mile or so out in the lake, where we dump a large amount of hot water.  Although, after 9\11 that area is now off limits  :frown:

Agree or disagree, I can't change your minds, but nuclear plants are clean, safely run, and have a low impact to the environment.  My proof?  Compare our industry to any other power generation industry on Earth.




« Last Edit: March 12, 2011, 02:32:28 PM by warhed »
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Offline grizz441

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Re: Relative dangers of nuclear power
« Reply #59 on: March 12, 2011, 02:29:04 PM »
grizzz441 i know what you mean but to be honest, what happened today? on tv you see explosion at a nuclear plant, buildings destroyed,
20km Evacuation zone, 300 000 been evacuated from homes ... - what do you expect from people who dont know
much about it? do you really think it will change there view to "oh, but it looks safe".

No, I think it is impossible to change the view of those that are not educated about it.