f4u brutal stall?

[PuppetZ]

I was test driving the f4u-1a tonight in TA. I had stall limiter off as I try to get accustomed to it. I experienced very frightening situation of deep stall when I felt I didn't push the envelope much. I was doing around 250 and pulled a LH flat turn not even blacking out. The plane quickly became very jerky and stalled all of a sudden without giving much of a warning. It was brutal. One second I was flying a plane half a second later I was rinding a brick. Do I try to fly it too slow or what? Should I employ flaps at these speed? I usually fly the a6m5 and never touch the flaps. The f4u's seem very touchy...

[Debris]

I've been flying the 1D around my self (Im new so take this as a grain of salt.)But I have noticed that the 1D starts with two notches of flaps already at startup. I assume this is because that they are Carrier Craft and is needed for take off. But could this be your probably be your problem as well? I hope it helps. But if it doesn't. I'm sorry, and I am sure that someone will come over with better information for you

[moot]

Two flaps on spawn sounds like auto-take off is turned on.

Riding the stall of a plane is comparable, from an input POV, to riding the edge of traction on a car.  You want to be riding the edge as smoothly as possible.  Doing this you'll get a good feel for the limits of a given plane, and also find its behavior beyond the limits a little less abruptly.  This way you'll have a clearer feel of where the plane is going in that departure, and have more time to straighten it if you wish.

[Debris]

Well, that certainly could be the case for me, I use auto take off most of the time. I just thought that could be the issue with Puppetz  stalling issue as well.  I know flaps are to help keep stability at lower speeds. But they also burn a lot more speed off, especially if you are not expecting them to be already engaged.

[moot]

Flaps generally make planes mushier even if they're almost or already "bottomed out".  If he was a bit flapped out, the abrupt departure could be due to his not realizing how near the edge of the envelope he was because of the flaps "masking" effect on what would otherwise clearly be serious departure.

It's really best to try to film everything.  With film you can really cut to the chase on what went wrong, and then move on to explore any related what-if's. 

[Stoney]

If you're familiar with the term "load factor" (if not, do a google search) then you know that if you pull 2Gs in a turn, you increase the weight of the plane to double its 1G weight.  This means you have to create twice the lift, generally speaking, to compensate.  If you don't create sufficient lifties, you'll stall.  This is called an accelerated stall, because the planes stalls at an airspeed higher than its 1G stall speed.  A Zero is almost impossible to get into an accelerated stall, unless it is very slow, because you will typically black out or run out of pitch authority before you can get it into an a stall.  A Corsair is much heavier, so in hard turns, you have to be careful not to load up the plane too much.  You'll get used to it eventually, and will learn how to ride the edge without taking it beyond.

[Getback]

I don't understand flight as much as others. I'm more of a if it does this, then do this type of guy.

You took the stall limiter off. Did you reset the elevator axis to 1 or slightly less than 1 going up to 1? Do not change the roll axis from default. You can change the rudder a bit though. You have to feel that out. If you kept it at default then it becomes jerky and you lose lift under your wings because you are use to jerking it around with no bad effects. Another thing is, as some one else I think was pointing out, you have to match throttle to air speed. Tough to learn. So if you are stuttering, cut throttle and add flaps.

I suggest going to the TA and feeling this stuff out.

[moot]

It could also be Puppetz' stick spiking.

[321BAR]

I was test driving the f4u-1a tonight in TA. I had stall limiter off as I try to get accustomed to it. I experienced very frightening situation of deep stall when I felt I didn't push the envelope much. I was doing around 250 and pulled a LH flat turn not even blacking out. The plane quickly became very jerky and stalled all of a sudden without giving much of a warning. It was brutal. One second I was flying a plane half a second later I was rinding a brick. Do I try to fly it too slow or what? Should I employ flaps at these speed? I usually fly the a6m5 and never touch the flaps. The f4u's seem very touchy...

250 indicated or true?

if you're not used to stall limiter being off you'll be flying more bricks than you think you should...
Few things about the F4U line:

--The landing gears were made to deploy at high speed as an airbrake (really useful in some situations but also changes the center of gravity)
--Most flaps on american planes are maneuvering flaps. The F4Us can deploy limited flaps at higher speed than many planes to do so. Just make sure that when doing this you go flaps up immediately after youre done with them (one notch flaps sometimes may be the best choice over full flaps extended)
--It is also an extremely maneuverable plane but the F4U1 line (A,C,D and original) can lose their energy extremely fast if not conserved correctly and it can be hard to get out of low and slow fights without a plan (this slow fighting without flaps can lead to stalling).
--Getting slow in an F4U is very easy. Getting back to speed isnt as easy (although easier than other aircraft). But the F4U can also keep its speed and energy very well also. ZnB tactics can work well in them but once this doesnt work it'll turn for you and keep you alive low and slow. Just make sure theres no more enemy near you when you try to get out of what you got into.

Any F4U fanatics please chime in with any fixes to what i have said, the F4U is my favorite CV plane but not the plane im most experienced with (P51s P38s)

BTW... A6Ms work really well over the top with flaps sometimes

[TequilaChaser]

I was test driving the f4u-1a tonight in TA. I had stall limiter off as I try to get accustomed to it. I experienced very frightening situation of deep stall when I felt I didn't push the envelope much. I was doing around 250 and pulled a LH flat turn not even blacking out. The plane quickly became very jerky and stalled all of a sudden without giving much of a warning. It was brutal. One second I was flying a plane half a second later I was rinding a brick. Do I try to fly it too slow or what? Should I employ flaps at these speed? I usually fly the a6m5 and never touch the flaps. The f4u's seem very touchy...

Puppetz, I really would like to help you figure out the F4U series

you say yo was doing 250 ( was this IAS or TAS?  IAS = Indicated Air Speed = white needle  TAS = True Air Speed = Red needle ) for all intents and purposes when I ( and I figure most others) talk about maneuvering in a plane and at what speeds they all usually refer to IAS (Indicated Air Speed / White needle )

ok, at 250 IAS and lets say 5,000 ft altitude....you say you went into a flat left hand turn er/or Left hand horizontal turn then you was in to a stall with in a 1/2 second.... with this information provided, all I can assume is you entered an accelerated stall or entered to high of an Angle of Attack ( or AoA ), even though you did not enter a blackout which at 250 IAS(or even TAS at this speed) you would be right near the point of where it be hard to pull the 6 G's needed to go into blackout you may be able to get to some possible tunnel vision perhaps though..... or may be briefly enter a slight black outbefore bleeding your speed down

sorry I am sleepy and I feel like I am repeating myself....

some other things that might of thrown you into a stall so quickly could have been the use of elevator /ailerons and rudder in a crossed control use or mixture of something similar.....this is especially easy if one uses a Twisty Stick Rudder....... without film it is really hard to say what exactly caused you to stall though.......

as for the 2 notches of flaps when using Auto Take Off...... several patches back. HTC incorporated this on the F4U1D, F4U1C ( and I think F4U4 ). I do not think or recall the F4U-1A or F4U-1 having their flaps lowered 2 notches though.......only the later 3 F4U's I have noticed this..... this was done to help newer player learn to get off the CV deck easier when launching

back to the F4U-1A doing a flat or horizontal turn at 250 IAS...... you should be able to pull a pretty hard turn at that speedat a mid to high G load of 3 to 5.5 or so without any problems, and it is personal preference if one would want to deploy the 1st notch of flaps or not, depending on the situation they are currently in

hope this makes sense, and hope it helps

TC

[Saxman]

--The landing gears were made to deploy at high speed as an airbrake (really useful in some situations but also changes the center of gravity)

I really don't like this. Some people seem to feel it works, but the only situations where I use the landing gear in combat is 1) my initial dive into a fight when I have a significant altitude advantage and don't want to overspeed, or 2) when dive-bombing ground targets. The landing gear can bleed off TOO much airspeed, and the earlier model Hogs take too long to get it back again. This is a desperation move, and when I see another F4U drop his gear in a fight I'd say 95% of the time I've got him dead to rights. If my opponent's gear go down in a low-speed turning fight my nose goes UP.

And as usual in these sorts of threads: RUDDER! RUDDER! RUDDER! RUDDER! RUDDER! I can NOT emphasize the rudder of the Corsair enough. The flaps on the Corsair are great, but IMO their importance is somewhat exaggerated and learning to manage that big rudder is even MORE important to flying the Corsair effectively.

[FLS]

I was test driving the f4u-1a tonight in TA. I had stall limiter off as I try to get accustomed to it. I experienced very frightening situation of deep stall when I felt I didn't push the envelope much. I was doing around 250 and pulled a LH flat turn not even blacking out. The plane quickly became very jerky and stalled all of a sudden without giving much of a warning. It was brutal. One second I was flying a plane half a second later I was rinding a brick. Do I try to fly it too slow or what? Should I employ flaps at these speed? I usually fly the a6m5 and never touch the flaps. The f4u's seem very touchy...

It could simply be that you aren't used to flying with the stall limiter off. I'll just add a little to what was already posted. Whenever you turn you will slow down from lift induced drag. The load that you can put on your wings without stalling decreases when your speed decreases. If you film you can look at your speed and G load in the cockpit and that will help you to understand what happened. The stall limiter will automatically decrease your wing load by decreasing your angle of attack but with the stall limiter off you have to unload by easing your pull on the stick.

[manurin]

I can see two things for your problem, because at 250 mph you should be able to turn hard without departing into a stall:

1) you simply pull way too hard on your stick and too fast maybe, so you might actualy rather enter into a snap stall.
2) What was your fuel loadout? if your wings were heavy and asymetrical weight between the 2 could have played a role as well.

As someone said earlier a film could help understand better what you did or didn't do.

my 2 cents.

<S>

[PuppetZ]

Two flaps on spawn sounds like auto-take off is turned on.

I always ride with auto takeoff off so I had no flaps out. Besides I ride with combat trim on and when flaps are out, it make the nose want to go up big time so it's not it.

Puppetz, I really would like to help you figure out the F4U series

you say yo was doing 250 ( was this IAS or TAS?  IAS = Indicated Air Speed = white needle  TAS = True Air Speed = Red needle ) for all intents and purposes when I ( and I figure most others) talk about maneuvering in a plane and at what speeds they all usually refer to IAS (Indicated Air Speed / White needle )
ok, at 250 IAS and lets say 5,000 ft altitude....you say you went into a flat left hand turn er/or Left hand horizontal turn then you was in to a stall with in a 1/2 second.... with this information provided, all I can assume is you entered an accelerated stall

Good assumption here. about 250 IAS and 2.5K. I tend to fly low (between 3 and 5K) and let them come down to me so that's where I practice.

It could simply be that you aren't used to flying with the stall limiter off.

Whenever you turn you will slow down from lift induced drag. The load that you can put on your wings without stalling decreases when your speed decreases.

with this information provided, all I can assume is you entered an accelerated stall or entered to high of an Angle of Attack ( or AoA )

Right on. I'm not. But I was just real surprised by how fast I entered the departure. The rides I usually fly give much more of a warning. Back to my A6M5, this one will give a fair warning It's about to stall it start to shake and all so you have time to adjust. Not so much in that F4U. I should clarify here what happened. I banked and pulled hard. About 2-3 sec in the turn (probably lost a good deal of speed by that time exacerbated by the fact I have a slight tendency to turn nose high a wee bit) I started to show sign of departure and within that 1/2 sec it went upside down and fell out of the sky. And well these alt if something goes wrong your screwed unless you know what your doing. I lawndarted   .

On another note, I mentioned I like to fly an A6M5, not a lot of speed but good turn capabilities make gun defense much easier IMHO. So my general strategy is like I said is to fly rather low, between 3 and 5K ASL. Most BnZ'ers will have a 2-3 and possibly more alt advantage over me. But they will pick up lots of excess speed diving on me so I kind of try to sucker them into thinking they have an easy shot by pulling a gentle turn and when they get within 1000yds i begin to pull harder to defeat their gun solution. Since they're fast they can't follow. I'm beginning to be good at playing that little game, but I wonder if it would be a sound strategy riding a F4U?

[Vapor]

Sounds like a wing stall possible to angle of attack decreasing lift over the wing allowing the engine torque to contribute to control loss. Snap roll very possible as well. Also, how were the wing tanks loaded at the time? This is my fav plane due to the way it can turn on you.....or bring you home.  

Throttle management can utilize engine torque to assist riding a stall or mushy controls/over controlling. Flaps are great only when you need them due to drag...get used to working them during a fight.