P63

[Mystery]

Krusty, as usual, brings up a good point and provides thoughtful analysis.

Regarding transitioning to a new ride, Mellinger writes: "Some 36 P-63s had indeed been delivered to Pokryshkin's 9 GIAD in early May 1945, but with the division engaged in the final battle around Berlin and the Luftwaffe already beaten, units were too busy flying ground support and blockade mission to undertake a conversion onto the new fighter. The P-63s were duly parked until after the final surrender. Regiments within 5 GIAD, which also began to receive P-63s at the same time, did exactly the same thing."
- George Mellinger, "Soviet Lend-Lease Fighter Aces of World War 2", Osprey Publishing 2006

Which is why I believe we have to focus on the "Manchurian Strategic Offensive Operation" a.k.a. August/Autumn Storm for combat history.

[Mystery]

An interesting website -

"Incompleted list of Soviet WW2 fighter aces" http://www.wio.ru/aces/ace2.htm

Surprise, surprise...there are P-63's referenced as flown by 3 of the aces.

Some interesting rules regarding Soviet kills (and I cannot verify the accuracy of these rules - any comment from the AH community?)

1) The only planes accredited to [a] pilot's count were the ones shut [sic] down over territory occupied by friendly units.
2) In the other cases the victories had to be confirmed by another unit (for example by ground troops; wingman or same-regiment claims not accepted).

[iron650]

[quote author]
 A 1943 agreement, P-63s were disallowed for Soviet use against Germany and were supposed to be concentrated in the Soviet Far East for an eventual attack on Japan. However, there are many unconfirmed reports from both the Soviet and German side that P-63s did indeed see service against the Luftwaffe. Most notably, one of Pokryshkin's pilots reports in his memoirs published in the 1990s that the entire 4th GvIAP was secretly converted to P-63s in 1944, while officially still flying P-39s. One account states they were in action at Königsberg, in Poland and in the final assault on Berlin. There are German reports of P-63s shot down by both fighters and flak.
[/quote]

However, there were no records. But, sometimes nobody records the sortie due to secrecy or just forgetfulness.

+1

[Krusty]

1) The only planes accredited accredited to [a] pilot's count were the ones shut [sic] down over territory occupied by friendly units.
2) In the other cases the victories had to be confirmed by another unit (for example by ground troops; wingman or same-regiment claims not accepted).

I wouldn't put too much faith in that system. The Soviets by FAR, FAR blow away all other nations for intentional over-claiming. Many of those were false claims. It was the entire system from the top down to the lowly grunt. They were badgered, trained, shown, how to lie to stay alive in a system that could praise you 1 day and give you a bullet in the brain the next day.

I found a rather interesting discussion of it once (and linked on these forums many years back... somewhere) about some authors doing research and finding accounts of noted soviet aces even admitting that they had to make up numbers to stop the badgering they recieved, as soon as the got out of the plane the political officers and propoganda officers began.

During Operation Barbarosa there were many events like this: A German flight spotted a Soviet plane flying by itself. It was making all sorts of violent manuvers and firing its guns in the air. The Germans shot it down and captured the pilot. During interrogation he explained he couldn't go back and claim he never saw the enemy or never got any kills, so he had to burn off the gas and fire his guns to make it believable when he claimed such grandiose (but standard party propoganda) claims as "10 jumped me, I fought off 4 then the rest ran off!"

There are many examples of Soviet party lines recording the death of a noted ace as "Went into combat single handedly against 20+ fighters, scoring 5 kills only to be shot down" -- when the actual death was he dove on a Ju-87 and the tail gunner shot him down. Things like that.

The entire Soviet claim system was corrupt before the war, during the war, and well after the war, into Korea.

[Tyrannis]

so guys, to sum this 16 page long discussion up,



Does the P63 qualify for inclusion into aceshigh? YES, or NO?


i personally say YES, but im a cobra fan, so im a little biased.

[iron650]

so guys, to sum this 16 page long discussion up,



Does the P63 qualify for inclusion into aceshigh? YES, or NO?


i personally say YES, but im a cobra fan, so im a little biased.

I say YES, too. 

[Mystery]

Another interesting website: http://aces.safarikovi.org/victories/sssr-japan.1945.html  which shows Soviet kills during the "Manchurian Strategic Offensive Operation"

A total of 10...which doesn't sound like many until you dig into the details of what the Japanese did/did not have in the air, i.e. not much.

The table in the website shows:
1) The single confirmed(?) air-to-air kill of a P-63 against a Ki-43 (likely) or Ki-27 (possible) over Mongolia
2) Two "taran" (ramming) kills by pilots of the 22nd IAP, which just happened to be equipped with P-63's although there are no details - which fits into the Soviet attitude of Lend-Lease denial

Incidentally, the russian at the bottom of the table translates to:
17 IAP: 17 th Fighter Aviation Regiment of the Order of Suvorov, 190 th Fighter Polotsk Red Banner Order of Kutuzov Air Division, Air Force, the Trans-Baikal Front.
19 IAP : the 19 th Fighter Aviation Regiment, Air Force, Pacific Fleet.
22 IAP : 22 th Fighter Aviation Regiment of Red Halhingolsky, 246 th Fighter Mukden Air Division, 12 th Air Army, Air Force, the Trans-Baikal Front.
45 IAP : the 45 th Fighter Aviation Regiment, Air Force, Pacific Fleet.
50 50-th separate long-range reconnaissance Aviation Regiment, Air Force, Navy front.

[Mystery]

Does the P-63 qualify for inclusion into Aces High?
My (admittedly prejudiced) opinion is yes.

The criteria as I understand it is:
1) Deployed in squadron strength - check
2) Used in combat operations - check (I think!) but very hard to rigorously verify. However at some point a good amount of probable data is equivalent to a small amount of rigorous data.

Helpful things:
1) Flight performance data - check
2) Graphics/pictures - check
3) Player enthusiasm and desire - well...I'd say 16 pages and 2450+ views so far is a sign of interest if not enthusiasm and desire  

Summing up re the criteria:
Extremely probable use in "Manchurian Strategic Offensive Operation" in regimental strength
One highly probable air-to-air kill plus two "maybe's"
One highly confirmed air-to-air kill against a Japanese balloon (hey, a kill is a kill)  
2400+ produced and shipped to the Soviet Union

I believe it meets the criteria. Unfortunately, this is not a democracy and until/if HTC in its infinite wisdom includes it in a poll and we vote for it - we're still wishing.

But.

My secret plan was to build awareness of the P-63 so it might have a chance at winning the next poll. Thank you all for participating  

[Guppy35]

No objection as long as it comes AFTER my Beaufighter

[oboe]

I think it qualifies, barely. 

There are a number of planes though that I think would be more important to get into AH to fill gaps in the planeset, and I say that as a big 'cobra fan.  I love its looks, would love the performance increase over the P-39, and the ability to try it out in 'what-if' situations.  Disappointed they'll be no star and bar skins though.

[Shifty]

I think it qualifies, barely. 

There are a number of planes though that I think would be more important to get into AH to fill gaps in the planeset, and I say that as a big 'cobra fan.  I love its looks, would love the performance increase over the P-39, and the ability to try it out in 'what-if' situations.  Disappointed they'll be no star and bar skins though.

It would still be a cool addition.

[skorpion]

you know...it'd be great to have the P63 nightfighter...if we had night.

-1

[Guppy35]

you know...it'd be great to have the P63 nightfighter...if we had night.

-1

Where are those <Facepalm> pictures when you need them?

[Tyrannis]

you know...it'd be great to have the P63 nightfighter...if we had night.

-1

i believe you just defined what your signature asks 

Where are those <Facepalm> pictures when you need them?

best i got.

[AWwrgwy]

An interesting website -

"Incompleted list of Soviet WW2 fighter aces" http://www.wio.ru/aces/ace2.htm

Surprise, surprise...there are P-63's referenced as flown by 3 of the aces.

Some interesting rules regarding Soviet kills (and I cannot verify the accuracy of these rules - any comment from the AH community?)

1) The only planes accredited to [a] pilot's count were the ones shut [sic] down over territory occupied by friendly units.
2) In the other cases the victories had to be confirmed by another unit (for example by ground troops; wingman or same-regiment claims not accepted).

I've read the same thing in multiple sources.

Kills needed to be confirmed physically.

However, I've also read varying opinions on awarding kills during the Korean War. Films were used more and some non-kills were awarded while some definite kills were denied.

Even the "physical" verification was sometimes suspect in Korea as different, non-coordinated search parties sometimes found wreckage at different times, independently while looking to confirm different kills from different pilots at different times.

There is also a possibility that the USAF may have fudged losses a bit, between what was lost and how it was lost.


wrongway