Author Topic: Flap spins are a thing of the past....  (Read 3685 times)

Offline MarineUS

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Re: Flap spins are a thing of the past....
« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2011, 05:01:34 PM »
Really?

You honestly mean to say that pilots these days aren't as skilled as pilots in, say, WWII?

Wow.
Did I say that? No.
Did I say it takes less skill to fly these planes? Yes. (less and less skill is needed) :/
Like I told, ack ack (I believe) one day - decipher what I say, think about it and THEN reply.

Learning computers is much easier than learning the other necessary things to be successful in a prop aircraft.
Am I saying these pilots are not skilled? No - most of them are very talented individuals who have a passion for aviation, but with all the computers doing most of the workload for someone its easier to put a much less skilled pilot in it and have good results.

Wow...just wow...

Right?

« Last Edit: March 25, 2011, 05:03:22 PM by MarineUS »
Like, ya know, when that thing that makes you move, it has pistons and things, When your thingamajigy is providing power, you do not hear other peoples thingamajig when they are providing power.

HiTech

Offline Dichotomy

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Re: Flap spins are a thing of the past....
« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2011, 05:25:08 PM »
Agree...

Randy Quaid proved that in Independence Day.  ;)
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Offline Melvin

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Re: Flap spins are a thing of the past....
« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2011, 05:44:55 PM »
Did I say that? No.
Did I say it takes less skill to fly these planes? Yes. (less and less skill is needed) :/
Like I told, ack ack (I believe) one day - decipher what I say, think about it and THEN reply.

Learning computers is much easier than learning the other necessary things to be successful in a prop aircraft.
Am I saying these pilots are not skilled? No - most of them are very talented individuals who have a passion for aviation, but with all the computers doing most of the workload for someone its easier to put a much less skilled pilot in it and have good results.

Wow...just wow...

Right?



Yeah, so you feel that pilots these days are less skilled than previous generations.

To that I say HOGWASH.

I didn't think they just stuck pilots in the seat and figured everything would be peachy because hey, "learning computers is much easier than learning the other necessary things to be successful in a prop aircraft."

As far as I recall, there is an intensive and rather expensive training regimen that prospective pilots must go through.

I could be wrong though..... so yeah, Wow.
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Offline eagl

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Re: Flap spins are a thing of the past....
« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2011, 05:51:32 PM »
Learning computers is much easier than learning the other necessary things to be successful in a prop aircraft.
Am I saying these pilots are not skilled? No - most of them are very talented individuals who have a passion for aviation, but with all the computers doing most of the workload for someone its easier to put a much less skilled pilot in it and have good results.

I disagree.  Some of the basic stick and rudder stuff is easier, but the workload and physical demands are higher.  We routinely wash out people who would probably have been fine WWII pilots, not because we don't need them or because someone else would be better, but because we are concerned that they have some lack of ability that would result in their early and pointless death, the death of a wingman, or (best case) result in the waste of millions of dollars trying to train someone who simply can't do the job.

I'll say that the F-15E is the "easiest" plane I've ever flown, IF you consider "flying" to be nothing more than takeoff, landing, and autopilot cruise.  Using it effectively in combat is extremely demanding, and if we ever needed thousands of F-15E pilots I suspect we'd be dumbing down a lot of things because even with the thousands of highly motivated volunteers we get every year, we still wash people out throughout the entire pilot training pipeline, including some people who get to their fighter squadron and never really make much of themselves there, or worse, die from relatively basic mistakes that they've been trained to avoid from day one.

No, the computers don't "do most of the workload" in any modern aircraft.  All they do is let the pilot work on other things.  He's still engaged 100% in extremely difficult tasks, and the washout rate even when producing only a mere fraction of the pilots produced in WWII speaks volumes about how difficult it still is.

Plus... A modern fighter pilot is an athlete...  Has to be, to be able to survive multiple tours in aircraft that can pull 9 Gs.  The relatively wild lifestyle lived by many WWII pilots, however necessary at the time to cope with combat stress, would simply not be survivable nowadays unless the aircraft capabilities were grossly underutilized.  You simply don't smoke and drink yourself to sleep night after night, then go up and fly 10 hr missions in a 9G aircraft.  The best traits of old school bomber and fighter pilots, bombadiers, and navigators, must all be present in a modern fighter pilot because he's doing all of it.  Yea the computers make it work since a fighter pilot can't whip out a slide rule during a SAM defensive maneuver when he's at the IP point and needs to recompute his weapons release parameters, but he's still doing 10 things at once while pulling 6 to 9 Gs, and failing in any of those tasks means he's not making it home from the mission.

It isn't easier...  It's actually more complicated BECAUSE of the computers.

Heck, you might as well say that nasa astronauts have it easy because the computers do everything for them...  Ludicrous.  The computers simply make an impossible task possible, or make a difficult task possible to complete with a more effective result.

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Offline MaSonZ

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Re: Flap spins are a thing of the past....
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2011, 05:55:45 PM »
I disagree.  Some of the basic stick and rudder stuff is easier, but the workload and physical demands are higher.  We routinely wash out people who would probably have been fine WWII pilots, not because we don't need them or because someone else would be better, but because we are concerned that they have some lack of ability that would result in their early and pointless death, the death of a wingman, or (best case) result in the waste of millions of dollars trying to train someone who simply can't do the job.

I'll say that the F-15E is the "easiest" plane I've ever flown, IF you consider "flying" to be nothing more than takeoff, landing, and autopilot cruise.  Using it effectively in combat is extremely demanding, and if we ever needed thousands of F-15E pilots I suspect we'd be dumbing down a lot of things because even with the thousands of highly motivated volunteers we get every year, we still wash people out throughout the entire pilot training pipeline, including some people who get to their fighter squadron and never really make much of themselves there, or worse, die from relatively basic mistakes that they've been trained to avoid from day one.

No, the computers don't "do most of the workload" in any modern aircraft.  All they do is let the pilot work on other things.  He's still engaged 100% in extremely difficult tasks, and the washout rate even when producing only a mere fraction of the pilots produced in WWII speaks volumes about how difficult it still is.

Plus... A modern fighter pilot is an athlete...  Has to be, to be able to survive multiple tours in aircraft that can pull 9 Gs.  The relatively wild lifestyle lived by many WWII pilots, however necessary at the time to cope with combat stress, would simply not be survivable nowadays unless the aircraft capabilities were grossly underutilized.  You simply don't smoke and drink yourself to sleep night after night, then go up and fly 10 hr missions in a 9G aircraft.  The best traits of old school bomber and fighter pilots, bombadiers, and navigators, must all be present in a modern fighter pilot because he's doing all of it.  Yea the computers make it work since a fighter pilot can't whip out a slide rule during a SAM defensive maneuver when he's at the IP point and needs to recompute his weapons release parameters, but he's still doing 10 things at once while pulling 6 to 9 Gs, and failing in any of those tasks means he's not making it home from the mission.

It isn't easier...  It's actually more complicated BECAUSE of the computers.

Heck, you might as well say that nasa astronauts have it easy because the computers do everything for them...  Ludicrous.  The computers simply make an impossible task possible, or make a difficult task possible to complete with a more effective result.


Sounds like someones flown a tour or two for the nation?
You brought up points I never considered with this.
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Offline Shiva

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Re: Flap spins are a thing of the past....
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2011, 06:31:21 PM »
Hey, it takes skill to ride one of these too.   :neener:
Joining the Martin-Baker Fan Club is not generally regarded as the high point of a pilot's career...

Offline Serenity

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Re: Flap spins are a thing of the past....
« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2011, 06:32:50 PM »
Redundant systems, that's how.

Which is why an entire squadron had to return home when their navigation failed due to crossing the international date line...

And why a pilot was stuck in the cockpit for hours because it just wouldn't open...

Offline Penguin

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Re: Flap spins are a thing of the past....
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2011, 07:25:59 PM »
Which is why an entire squadron had to return home when their navigation failed due to crossing the international date line...

And why a pilot was stuck in the cockpit for hours because it just wouldn't open...

To quote the Discovery Channel: Stuff happens

On the cockpit point, they could have gotten the pilot out, one way or another.  The only problem is that it might have destroyed some rather expensive equipment in the process.

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Offline hotard

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Re: Flap spins are a thing of the past....
« Reply #23 on: March 26, 2011, 12:18:04 AM »
MY only b1tch about technology, especially in the Aviation world, is what do we do when the technology fails? Say the on-board computer in the Raptor failed during his flat spin, God forbid, and he couldn't recover in time because of lack of knowledge and / or training due to dependency on those computers? As great as technology is...We still need to know how to do things the old way with our hands and brain. Bottom line.

Modern fighters are built dynamically unstable. U loose the computer in instances like the flat spin. u loose the plane. It really  takes the computer to recover it.  F-18's have same set up.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2011, 12:25:45 AM by hotard »
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Offline eagl

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Re: Flap spins are a thing of the past....
« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2011, 01:16:51 AM »
On the cockpit point, they could have gotten the pilot out, one way or another.  The only problem is that it might have destroyed some rather expensive equipment in the process.

The fire department finally cut him out, chopping a hole in the canopy.  It filled the cockpit and covered the pilot with fine, abrasive plexiglass powder and of course destroyed a rather expensive canopy.  The article didn't mention what they did to get the canopy to open later on.
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Offline Penguin

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Re: Flap spins are a thing of the past....
« Reply #25 on: March 26, 2011, 09:38:43 AM »
The fire department finally cut him out, chopping a hole in the canopy.  It filled the cockpit and covered the pilot with fine, abrasive plexiglass powder and of course destroyed a rather expensive canopy.  The article didn't mention what they did to get the canopy to open later on.


I meant that he could have used the ejection seat, but WOW is your way cheaper.

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Offline Acidrain

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Re: Flap spins are a thing of the past....
« Reply #26 on: March 26, 2011, 11:09:36 AM »
sweet machine , but they really should do one of those Body Wrap jobs on it made out of the dollar bills in whatever denomination it would require to equal the cost of 1 plane...just to rub other countries noses in it of course.  :ahand

Offline MarineUS

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Re: Flap spins are a thing of the past....
« Reply #27 on: March 26, 2011, 12:04:10 PM »
Did I say it takes less skill to fly these planes? Yes. (less and less skill is needed) :/

Am I saying these pilots are not skilled? No - most of them are very talented individuals who have a passion for aviation, but with all the computers doing most of the workload for someone its easier to put a much less skilled pilot in it and have good results.

Wow...just wow...

Right?
Please re-read.

Physical demands on the body are not "skill". It's a tolerance.
Yes they take crazy G's and all that jazz, but that is another discussion entirely.

So I stand by my statement and wait for an answer that actually applies to my response.

The point STILL is - you can take a less skilled pilot and achieve the same results.
Planes rarely dogfight anymore so bringing it up is -ALMOST- pointless. I do not consider a launched missile from over a mile+ away dogfighting.
Do the pilots of today do a lot of extra crap while they fly? Yes. But this is not the point in question.

Topic topic topic. -_-
« Last Edit: March 26, 2011, 12:06:36 PM by MarineUS »
Like, ya know, when that thing that makes you move, it has pistons and things, When your thingamajigy is providing power, you do not hear other peoples thingamajig when they are providing power.

HiTech

Offline W7LPNRICK

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Re: Flap spins are a thing of the past....
« Reply #28 on: March 26, 2011, 01:21:29 PM »
Joining the Martin-Baker Fan Club is not generally regarded as the high point of a pilot's career...

I used to work on those!!  :salute
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Offline Flipperk

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Re: Flap spins are a thing of the past....
« Reply #29 on: March 26, 2011, 01:41:28 PM »
Please re-read.

Physical demands on the body are not "skill". It's a tolerance.
Yes they take crazy G's and all that jazz, but that is another discussion entirely.

So I stand by my statement and wait for an answer that actually applies to my response.

The point STILL is - you can take a less skilled pilot and achieve the same results.
Planes rarely dogfight anymore so bringing it up is -ALMOST- pointless. I do not consider a launched missile from over a mile+ away dogfighting.
Do the pilots of today do a lot of extra crap while they fly? Yes. But this is not the point in question.

Topic topic topic. -_-



Let's think about it Marine,

If you were to put a modern jet pilot in the cockpit of a P-51 vs. a P-51 pilot from WWII, the modern jet pilot will win.


Today's jet pilot's are taught a side of science of aviation combat that WWII pilots did not. WWII pilots were trained to basic dogfighting skills then released for combat. Today's jet pilots could probably fly a WWII prop fighter just as good or better than any WWII ace, just by the fact of today's training is more vigorous and requires a pretty intelligent individual to fly these planes.

You stated that physical well being is not a skill...ok sure, I might buy that when gas gets down to $1/gal. Put a fat boy in a F22 vs. this officer and see who gives up first.

Intellect & Fitness = Skills, my friend


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