Author Topic: Flap spins are a thing of the past....  (Read 3671 times)

Offline Delirium

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Re: Flap spins are a thing of the past....
« Reply #45 on: March 28, 2011, 02:31:20 PM »
Really, both pilots were plenty busy, and had/have plenty on their minds.  If either was placed in the others element I think it'd cause enough confusion to skew the fight.

Agreed...

I think the biggest difference is the modern sticks have the ability to process much more data, not just because of the computer, but also because they are trained to do so. In high speed combat with BVR weapons (including SAMs), your mind needs to work faster to stay ahead of the aircraft and combat. Modern day selection for fighter duty is very competitive, we simply don't need the number of pilots that we had during WWII and we can be selective.

WWII sticks generally had less to process in the cockpit since they were flying slower. Most of their attention was placed outside the cockpit so they could see someone before they achieved a firing position (high alt ack, the exception). However, they also had the 'seat of the pants' flying experience where they would be ahead of the aircraft by the very feel of the way it flew.

I feel you could get the same comparison by taking one of our AH guys and putting him into a different sim like A-10. Granted, some of ACM are the same but the environment is apples and oranges like Mtnman said.

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Offline eagl

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Re: Flap spins are a thing of the past....
« Reply #46 on: March 28, 2011, 02:37:31 PM »
Over the long run, pilots cost more than the planes.  So make each plane more capable so you need less of them and less pilots.

Also, the up-front purchase price of the plane isn't the whole story either.  The maintenance and supply is much more.  The per plane purchase price of the F-22 probably wasn't what killed the Raptor production.  I bet it was the long-term cost of the things that killed off the F-22.  Problem is, we don't have enough and don't have any alternative available unless the AF changes policy and authorizes purchase of non-stealthy F-15s to ensure we have enough real air superiority fighters to defend the country.  The JSF sure isn't gonna do it.

Part of the idea is also to win the war early, so we don't NEED a ton of cheaper aircraft.

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Offline ink

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Re: Flap spins are a thing of the past....
« Reply #47 on: March 28, 2011, 03:32:57 PM »
Over the long run, pilots cost more than the planes.  So make each plane more capable so you need less of them and less pilots.

Also, the up-front purchase price of the plane isn't the whole story either.  The maintenance and supply is much more.  The per plane purchase price of the F-22 probably wasn't what killed the Raptor production.  I bet it was the long-term cost of the things that killed off the F-22.  Problem is, we don't have enough and don't have any alternative available unless the AF changes policy and authorizes purchase of non-stealthy F-15s to ensure we have enough real air superiority fighters to defend the country.  The JSF sure isn't gonna do it.

Part of the idea is also to win the war early, so we don't NEED a ton of cheaper aircraft.



so I take it you are a fighter pilot in the RW?

well ive only flown 1 plane my whole life,on my 40th B-day, I have about 53 tours in AH, and very limited flying in any other "game" "sim" I haven't been here for 10 years I never flew in AW or WB's.....so it would seem that these people who have so much more experience flying/fighting should be able to smoke me easy....but yet this isn't so, why is that?   natural ability,   I was getting kills my first days in AH, and no they were not vulches or in gangs, I fly the same exact way now that I did then, find the biggest red dar and fight till I am dead or no bullets, hell I remember the first time the guy who introduced AH to me watched me fly he says to me " you cant do that"  yet he was flying in AH long before me, I could easily smoke him within a day of me flying, why?   again I say "natural ability"   
    my whole point is Natural ability trumps experience/education almost every time.....my one huge issue is targeting, I just cant seem to get it down, my hit % is 6.1 as of today,  I have come to see that the better shot will most often win over the better pilot, does not matter how good I can fly if I cant hit and kill the nme con I am useless.

a modern fighter pilot is trained to use so much more then a WW2 pilot, does that make them better?  NO WAY  and to think because they are "trained" in more "stuff" makes them better is Laughable at best,  its kinda a moot point to say one is better then another, for it comes down to the individual, some are Naturals, some can train for years and still get smacked around by the noob who is a natural.

of course this is my opinion and don't hold much water to a trained "fighter pilot" such as yourself.....but we can test my theory in the DA :aok
no ego or anything like that, but it will be fun, and a good experiment....ok I will admit It will be cool to know I can send a real "Fighter" pilot to the tower  :t

Offline moot

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Re: Flap spins are a thing of the past....
« Reply #48 on: March 28, 2011, 03:48:14 PM »
Ink you can't make straight comparisons between virtual and real piloting.  Another instance and one that's much richer in data points: race sim players and real race pilots.  The exchange doesn't quite work either way: many successful race car pilots "fail" in race sims, and there's no evidence I know of that simmers are any better in reality.  I've seen just as many say that what they picked up in sims gave them a leg up, as there were saying that what they learned to bring them to the top 5% in virtuality not only didn't apply in reality, but handicapped them in reality because those things were "bad habits". 
What you learn in virtuality isn't reality, not unless you happen to also have either a lucky disposition for, or put a lot of effort in keeping everything you learn (and I mean everything, right down to the fundamentals like muscle memory etc) "up in the air" because it might turn out that reality is different: that the fundamental physics you integrated as immutable rules are different, that some things you rely on just don't exist in reality (e.g. no icons, no idealized shapes and textures to everything like 3D engine graphics, constraints on head movement under heavy Gs, etc), or that some things in reality are in a totally different universe compared to virtuality - e.g. the infinite granularity of feedback from real air on real surfaces and real seat of the pants feel.

Nature and nurture go hand in hand. This is in the biosciences literature. Not only are people in general at least as healthy as they were 50 years ago (see life expectancy and fitness for yourself, it's a steady rise iirc), but they benefit from all the lessons learned since.  That means not just some dogmatic edumacation, but that they grow up already knowing things that those old pilots had to digest and adapt to themselves.

Take one of those pilots 50 years ago and put him thru the life of a modern pilot and he'll easily have an advantage over his un-time-transported self living 50 years earlier.  So the only way WWII era pilots have some superiority is if their biology is superior - plain physical fitness or mental acuity...  And from what Eagl describes it's actually the opposite.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2011, 03:53:10 PM by moot »
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Offline ink

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Re: Flap spins are a thing of the past....
« Reply #49 on: March 28, 2011, 04:26:39 PM »
ya I agree with that moot, I know you cant compare the two, real life to virtual, I totally understand the no G's and what not, but I also know first hand that AH gave me a huge edge when I flew the plane I did, it taught me what to do, I had absolutely no problem flying it, Except for the fact that my body never experienced that kind of motion and I got vertigo bad :lol

I also know if someone is a real world fighter pilot he may not try things in AH that I would, he may fly it more like real life, where as I have no experience in real world flying.............and have no issues with flying it as a game.


I still wanna kick a real "fighter pilot" ass  :t     

 :rofl

Offline W7LPNRICK

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Re: Flap spins are a thing of the past....
« Reply #50 on: April 01, 2011, 02:39:00 PM »
Fighter pilots cost more than planes? Still now with the multi-billion $ space age fighters + all the man hour maintaining them. I wish I was worth a billion.  :old:
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Offline Plawranc

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Re: Flap spins are a thing of the past....
« Reply #51 on: April 01, 2011, 08:06:16 PM »
Over the long run, pilots cost more than the planes.  So make each plane more capable so you need less of them and less pilots.

Also, the up-front purchase price of the plane isn't the whole story either.  The maintenance and supply is much more.  The per plane purchase price of the F-22 probably wasn't what killed the Raptor production.  I bet it was the long-term cost of the things that killed off the F-22.  Problem is, we don't have enough and don't have any alternative available unless the AF changes policy and authorizes purchase of non-stealthy F-15s to ensure we have enough real air superiority fighters to defend the country.  The JSF sure isn't gonna do it.

Part of the idea is also to win the war early, so we don't NEED a ton of cheaper aircraft.



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Offline eagl

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Re: Flap spins are a thing of the past....
« Reply #52 on: April 02, 2011, 09:05:52 AM »
Fighter pilots cost more than planes? Still now with the multi-billion $ space age fighters + all the man hour maintaining them. I wish I was worth a billion.  :old:


You wouldn't be the only pilot flying that plane...  Fighter squadrons are typically manned at a 1.5 crew ratio, and while you might consider costs like maintenance and fuel per hour to be a cost of the plane, that isn't how it works.  Those expenses go against the crews who fly the planes, since an airplane is just as capable if it flies one hour or 100 hours per month, while a pilot who flies 1 hr a month is useless.

Some very rough numbers...

Fighter hours run somewhere between $7,000 and $15,000 per hour.  A typical fighter pilot requires a minimum of approx 9 sorties per month, each sortie averaging 1.3 hours, just to maintain minimum training requirements.  That adds up to just over $2 million bucks each year per pilot just to maintain minimum qualifications and currencies.  In an F-15E squadron, apply a 1.2 factor to that since pilots and WSOs sometimes can't double-log both of their training on the same sortie, then multiply by the number of pilots per squadron for total cost, and then divide again by the number of aircraft to get annual training expense *just for flight time* expended per aircraft, if you want to see why planners are always trying to cut both the number of aircraft as well as the number of aircrew.  Oh yea, don't forget that we need to keep a hefty percentage of our pilots in staff positions that require operational experience, so after you train up these guys, half of them don't keep flying for much of their career, so you need even more pilots.

Tack on $2 mil or so per pilot for initial pilot training, including costs for everything from UPT through multiple mandatory survival schools.

That number also completely ignores wing support expenses and mission support expenses, such as maintaining and operating EW ranges, bombing ranges, etc.  It also leaves out training munition and other misc. "expendable" expenses.  All told, each fighter pilot probably costs anywhere from $4 to $8 million bucks per year.

That also explains why the govt has in the past handed out up to $25,000 per year in salary bonuses when they need pilots to stay in the AF...  A total expense of $250,000 to keep a pilot with 10 years experience from taking $80 million in training out the door with him is a fairly good deal I think, but when they are making manning cuts sometimes those guys are rather abruptly shown the door, kicked out with no option to continue serving.

That's why they're looking at UAVs because it looks damn attractive on paper, but (according to aviation week) they're finding out that each UAV orbit requires somewhere around 100 support personnel, and the support expenses and manning requirements are still somewhat higher than the same support expenses for traditional manned aircraft.  So the UAV "savings" aren't there yet and IMHO never really will be there, but that's also because IMHO on day 1 or 2 of a real shooting war, lots of UAVs will be shot down by dudes sitting on hilltops with optically guided AAA, binoculars, and unjammable dedicated wired or optical comm lines.  But that's just my worthless opinion on a completely different subject.

Yes, it used to amaze me how much money was being pumped into my training, and it has been a source of focus to keep me motivated to keep "giving back" during my daily duties.  Some days I'm the world's most overpaid janitor, one LtC I know figures he was the world's highest paid bellhop when he was an aid to some General, but the whole idea that our skills are essential and could make all the difference in the world during any conflict makes it easier to understand and accept the responsibility given to us, especially in terms of dollars invested in our training.

But maybe now you can see why I scoff a bit at most per-plane cost numbers...  They're a huge up-front expense but compared to the manning and support costs, they're not even close to the biggest part of the equation.  Except for the B-2 and I think some of the RC-135 variants... 
Everyone I know, goes away, in the end.

Offline eagl

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Re: Flap spins are a thing of the past....
« Reply #53 on: April 02, 2011, 09:10:17 AM »
Fighter pilots cost more than planes? Still now with the multi-billion $ space age fighters + all the man hour maintaining them. I wish I was worth a billion.  :old:


You wouldn't be the only pilot flying that plane...  Fighter squadrons are typically manned at a 1.5 crew ratio, and while you might consider costs like maintenance and fuel per hour to be a cost of the plane, that isn't how it works.  Those expenses go against the crews who fly the planes, since an airplane is just as capable if it flies one hour or 100 hours per month, while a pilot who flies 1 hr a month is useless.

Some very rough numbers...

Fighter hours run somewhere between $7,000 and $15,000 per hour.  A typical fighter pilot requires a minimum of approx 9 sorties per month, each sortie averaging 1.3 hours, just to maintain minimum training requirements.  That adds up to just over $2 million bucks each year per pilot just to maintain minimum qualifications and currencies.  In an F-15E squadron, apply a 1.2 factor to that since pilots and WSOs sometimes can't double-log both of their training on the same sortie, then multiply by the number of pilots per squadron for total cost, and then divide again by the number of aircraft to get annual training expense *just for flight time* expended per aircraft, if you want to see why planners are always trying to cut both the number of aircraft as well as the number of aircrew.  Oh yea, don't forget that we need to keep a hefty percentage of our pilots in staff positions that require operational experience, so after you train up these guys, half of them don't keep flying for much of their career, so you need even more pilots.

Tack on $2 mil or so per pilot for initial pilot training, including costs for everything from UPT through multiple mandatory survival schools.

That number also completely ignores wing support expenses and mission support expenses, such as maintaining and operating EW ranges, bombing ranges, etc.  It also leaves out training munition and other misc. "expendable" expenses.  All told, each fighter pilot probably costs anywhere from $4 to $8 million bucks per year.

That also explains why the govt has in the past handed out up to $25,000 per year in salary bonuses when they need pilots to stay in the AF...  A total expense of $250,000 to keep a pilot with 10 years experience from taking $80 million in training out the door with him is a fairly good deal I think, but when they are making manning cuts sometimes those guys are rather abruptly shown the door, kicked out with no option to continue serving.

That's why they're looking at UAVs because it looks damn attractive on paper, but (according to aviation week) they're finding out that each UAV orbit requires somewhere around 100 support personnel, and the support expenses and manning requirements are still somewhat higher than the same support expenses for traditional manned aircraft.  So the UAV "savings" aren't there yet and IMHO never really will be there, but that's also because IMHO on day 1 or 2 of a real shooting war, lots of UAVs will be shot down by dudes sitting on hilltops with optically guided AAA, binoculars, and unjammable dedicated wired or optical comm lines.  But that's just my worthless opinion on a completely different subject.

Yes, it used to amaze me how much money was being pumped into my training, and it has been a source of focus to keep me motivated to keep "giving back" during my daily duties.  Some days I'm the world's most overpaid janitor, one LtC I know figures he was the world's highest paid bellhop when he was an aid to some General, but the whole idea that our skills are essential and could make all the difference in the world during any conflict makes it easier to understand and accept the responsibility given to us, especially in terms of dollars invested in our training.

But maybe now you can see why I scoff a bit at most per-plane cost numbers...  They're a huge up-front expense but compared to the manning and support costs, they're not even close to the biggest part of the equation.  Except for the B-2 and I think some of the RC-135 variants... 
Everyone I know, goes away, in the end.

Offline Carrel

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Re: Flap spins are a thing of the past....
« Reply #54 on: April 02, 2011, 01:48:18 PM »
can someone help me get up to speed here? What's a flap spin?

Offline Penguin

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Re: Flap spins are a thing of the past....
« Reply #55 on: April 02, 2011, 01:58:51 PM »
can someone help me get up to speed here? What's a flap spin?

The OP misspelled flat spin.

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Offline icepac

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Offline bagrat

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Re: Flap spins are a thing of the past....
« Reply #57 on: April 02, 2011, 06:10:15 PM »
can someone help me get up to speed here? What's a flap spin?

its when you extend and retract your flapse very rapidly to create the effect of a bird flapping its wings. It's a secret most AH players do not know about, but if you do it too fast the plane will violently flap spin and you will most likely die...unless you have mastered reverse flap spin technique in which you must quickly extend in retract your flaps in the opposite direction. :salute

so remember qwqwqwqwqwqwqwqwqw, and when you get in trouble just wqwqwqwqwqwqwqwq
« Last Edit: April 02, 2011, 06:13:22 PM by bagrat »
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Offline Carrel

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Re: Flap spins are a thing of the past....
« Reply #58 on: April 02, 2011, 09:27:09 PM »
its when you extend and retract your flapse very rapidly to create the effect of a bird flapping its wings. It's a secret most AH players do not know about, but if you do it too fast the plane will violently flap spin and you will most likely die...unless you have mastered reverse flap spin technique in which you must quickly extend in retract your flaps in the opposite direction. :salute

so remember qwqwqwqwqwqwqwqwqw, and when you get in trouble just wqwqwqwqwqwqwqwq

I'm glad they fixed that bug then. If you tried doing that in a real airplane you might crash.

Offline F22RaptorDude

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Re: Flap spins are a thing of the past....
« Reply #59 on: April 02, 2011, 10:31:28 PM »
Hey, it takes skill to ride one of these too.   :neener:

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