black holes

[Ardy123]

They believe that at the center of every galaxy is a blackhole. My theory is that every blackhole is like beads of water on a waxed car hood. Over the emmense scale of time, the larger beads (blackholes) suck up the smaller ones until there is just one huge blackhole containing everything, all gas, matter, etc in the universe. In a fraction of a second that blackhole explodes in a BIG BANG and the cycle starts all over again.

Not true, the challenge for 30 years with Black Holes has been....
1) Until recently Hawking's formulas indicated that mass as destroyed by them which violates our current understanding of physics
2) There is a singularity with matter itsself, how does it all originate and from what? nothing?


Both of these issues have been recently 'solved' by the use of 'm-theory' in which our universe is not of one but rather part of an infinite number of universes and that matter is transferring between them. M-Theory breaks things down to the 11 dimensions in which if you view everything as a series of membranes, that have a wave like pattern. When the waves of a membrane collied with another wave from another membrane you get  a 'big bang' and an explosion of matter in that universe.

M-Theory was developed out of string theory but unlike string theory which argued that there were 10 dimensions, m-theory argues that there are actually 11.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-theory

[caldera]

"Why don't you just make 10 louder?"

           "These go to eleven."

[RTHolmes]

 

[curry1]

Nova, supernova and hypernova are energetic scales for an "explosive" events in a dying star. The different amount of energies involved relate to different processes that produce these events. Nova is a nuclear explosion due to accretion of material onto a compact object like a neutron star. Supernova is the way some stars end their lives and there are several kinds that depend on the exact scenario. Sometimes it destroys the star completely, sometimes it leaves a neutron star. Hypernova is an even more energetic supernova. It is not exactly clear what happens there, but the common idea is that this is how particularily massive stars end their short lives by collapsing straight into a black hole. It is usually under the broad definition of a supernova.
The cartoon intent is only to give a rough illustration and combine different pieces of information  into one picture we can keep in our heads. The details in it are far from consensus among astronomers, but they agree on the broad picture of it. Astronomy (and science in general) has developed tools to investigate things that cannot be imaged by a camera. In the case of active galactic nuclear (AGN) the elements in the picture represent a large amount of investigations using spectroscopy, timing analysis and statistical surveys.

Example:
Astronomers see broadened spectral lines that indicate velocity dispersion of 1000s km/sec. These must come from "things" close to a very compact gravitational source (nothing else can create such a dispersion) - depicted as clouds in what is called the "broad line region". From analysis of the variation in brightness in time astronomers know the distance between the central bright light source and reflecting clouds around it - echoes of these variations are seen in the reflected light. From the statistics of how many of these objects appear highly obscured and in how many the light reaches us without much in the way we know that there is thick material around the central source that cover a certain fraction of the sphere around it (depicted as a torus in the images). and so on.

I always thought that large stars went supernova and all of the gas and debris shot out into space the gravity from whatever was left of the star pulled in all of the debris and mostly Neutrons from the fusion explosions.  Those neutrons accumulate until they form a neutron star and as soon as that star reaches a certain diameter it has so much mass in such a small area that it turns into a black hole.

[bozon]

To maintain a neutron star as such a huge pressure is needed. Free neutrons (outside of a nucleus) decay into an electron and proton quite quickly. In high enough density, the pressure is supported not by regular collision of the particles, but by Fermi pressure - this is due to the limited number of quantum states per unit volume. Simply all the quantum states are occupied.

In the core of massive enough stars, when the fuel starts to run out, electrons and protons can combine to form neutrons. In such conditions, the neutron cannot decay back into a proton and electron because the electron does not have an available quantum state to be in. The result is a neutron core which is all that is left of the core of the star when the outer envelopes are blown away in the supernova. The neutron star is so dense (more than a ton per cc) that it can maintain this pressure under its own gravity.

To create a black hole an even stronger pressure is needed. If the mass of the neutron core is much higher than 4 solar masses then it will likely unable to support itself and collapse into a black hole. This can happen due to neutron star mergers, accretion or simply the progenitor star is massive enough to have such a heavy and dense core.

[Penguin]

Dear dedalos,

The jets generated by the black hole never "escaped the inescapable" because they never crossed the event horizon.  Furthermore, you have misinterpreted Occam's razor:

It requires two assumptions; that the hypothesis cannot be proved directly, and that the set of possibilities is finite.  The obserever makes puts the hypotheses in a list according to complexity, and chooses the least complex solution for further testing.

Occam's razor is flawed, in that it invokes the Black Swan Paradox.  The set of possibilities is actually always infinite.  Occam's razor cannot prove that something is, but prove that something is the most likely.  It is not a "sound" piece of logic (deductive logic), but rather a tool for triaging what needs attention.

Moot, that implies that the gravitational field only exists or is stronger at a disk at the equator and weaker at the poles.  How is that possible?  Also, how do they know so match and have been able to create illustrations of something they can not see but only speculate that it is there?  I am not saying they do not exist.  Just asking how could they explain and illustrate something they only "know" it is there by observing the surroundings.  This is just everything else.  It will be a fact until they discover something else.

Hawking s latest is that black holes eventually disappear and what ever matter they have devoured also disappears with them.  Again, no observation.  Just speculation using a lot of math and even more made up constants.  Tomorrow, the facts will be something else.

The matter does not "dissapear", that violates a law of thermodynamics "Energy cannot be destroyed".  Matter is a concentrated form of energy (hence E=mc²).  Black holes convert the absorbed matter into energy, and then release it as radiation.   

dedalos, please do your research first, then try to make an argument.  I know you're not trying to, but you're behaving like a troll.  Yes, this is coming from someone with the exact same problem.  This is why I know why you post the way you do.  Relax, it's better to close your mouth and be thought a fool than to open it and prove it to the world.

-Penguin

[RTHolmes]

penguin, the smartest kids ask the most questions, not try and tell you what they know. just sayin

[Penguin]

penguin, the smartest kids ask the most questions, not try and tell you what they know. just sayin

I'm smart, but I can't read well between the lines.  Would you care to elaborate?  Are you saying that I am wrong?

-Penguin

[moot]

Nova, supernova and hypernova are energetic scales for an "explosive" events in a dying star. The different amount of energies involved relate to different processes that produce these events.

From Project Rho's Boom Table:

Joules (J)	TNT Equivalent	Notes
0.0 x 1000		Big Bang (interpretation one)
1.0 x 1002		Firecracker
1.4 x 1003		kinetic energy of a 3.5 g AK-74 bullet fired at 900 m/s
3.3 x 1003		kinetic energy of a 9.33 g NATO rifle cartridge fired at 838 m/s
4.184 x 1003	1 gram	= 1 microton
1.3 x 1005	31 grams	Anti-personnel land mine
2.1 x 1005	50 grams	Single round of depleted uranium from an A-10 Warthog's GAU-8 rotating cannon (1,800 rpm)
8.4 x 1005	200 grams	1 stick TNT
9.5 x 1005	226 grams	Hand grenade
6.1 x 1006	1.4 kilogram	120mm Tank Gun KE Ammunition (KEW-A1)
2.1 x 1007	5 kg	Anti-tank mine
3.9 x 1007		Impact energy of proposed Navy 64 megajoule railgun
1.2 x 1008	28 kg	1 gallon of gasoline
1.8 x 1008	43 kg	1 microgram of antimatter + 1 microgram of matter
5.3 x 1008	127 kg	Battleship Iowa 16 inch shell with 54 kg high explosive charge
8.5 x 1008	203 kg	1 second of output from an average commercial nuclear power reactor (850 MW)
1.9 x 1009	454 kg	Tomahawk cruise missile (TLAM-C)
4.184 x 1009	1 ton
8.4 x 1009	2 t	= 0.002 kiloton, Oklahoma City bombing
2.0 x 1010	4.8 t	Average lightning bolt
3.6 x 1010	8.6t	Average tornado
4.2 x 1010	10 t	= 0.01 kiloton, Davy Crockett tactical nuclear weapon
5.0 x 1010	12 t	yield energy of a MOAB (Massive Ordnance Air Blast) bomb, the second most powerful non-nuclear weapon ever designed
1.8 x 1011	43 t	1 milligram of antimatter + 1 milligram of matter
1.8 x 1011	44 t	yield energy of a ATBIP (Aviation Thermobaric Bomb of Increased Power) bomb, the most powerful non-nuclear weapon ever designed
4.184 x 1012	1 kiloton	= 1000 tons
1.5 x 1013		1 second of the total power consumption of the human world in the year 2004
2.0 x 1013		1 second of power generated between the surfaces of Jupiter and its moon Io due to Jupiter's magnetic field
3.6 x 1013	1 kt	energy released by an average thunderstorm
4.4 x 1013		1 second of total heat flux from earth's interior
4.6 x 1013	11 kt	Relativistic weapon: 1 gram at 75% c
6.3 x 1013	15 kt	1 Hiroshima "Little Boy"
8.8 x 1013	21 kt	Nagasaki "Fat Man"
1.2 x 1014	29 kt	Relativistic weapon: 1 gram at 90% c
1.8 x 1014	43 kt	1 gram of antimatter + 1 gram of matter
4.2 x 1014	100 kt	W76 warhead
5.5 x 1014	132 kt	Relativistic weapon: 1 gram at 99% c
6.0 x 1014	143 kt	energy released by an average hurricane in one second
1.3 x 1015	300 kt	W87 warhead
1.4 x 1015	338 kt	Earthquake 6.9 on the Richter scale
1.4 x 1015		1 second of total heat flux transported by the Gulf Stream
1.9 x 1015	454 kt	Relativistic weapon: 1 gram at 99.9% c
2.0 x 1015	475 kt	W88 warhead
2.0 x 1015	477 kt	Earthquake 7.0 on the Richter scale
2.1 x 1015	500 kt	Ivy King device (largest pure fission device ever made)
4.0 x 1015		1 second of total heat flux transported by earth's atmosphere and oceans away from the equator towards the poles

[moot]

4.184 x 1015	1 megaton	67 Hiroshimas
5.0 x 1015	1.2 Mt	Maximum yield of B83 nuclear bomb (most powerful U.S. weapon in active service)
6.3 x 1015	1.5 Mt	Relativistic weapon: 1 gram at 99.99% c
1.5 x 1016	3.5 Mt	1 Barringer Meteor Crater
3.8 x 1016	9 Mt	B53 nuclear bomb (most powerful US warhead; no longer in active service)
4.4 x 1016	10.4 Mt	Eniwetok
4.6 x 1016	11 Mt	Relativistic weapon: 1 kilogram at 75% c
6.3 x 1016	15 Mt	Castle Bravo device (Bikini Atoll) (most powerful US test)
6.3 x 1016	15 Mt	1 Tunguska event = 4.3 Barringer Meteor Craters
6.3 x 1016	15 Mt	Earthquake 8.0 on the Richter scale
1.0 x 1017	24 Mt	total energy output of a Type-I civilization (Kardashev scale) each second
1.1 x 1017	25 Mt	1 "city killer" nuclear warhead
1.1 x 1017	25 Mt	Maximum yield of B41 bomb (most powerful US bomb; no longer in active service)
1.1 x 1017	25 Mt	Mount St. Helens = 1.6 Tunguskas
1.2 x 1017	29 Mt	Relativistic weapon: 1 kilogram at 90% c
1.3 x 1017	31 Mt	energy released by an average hurricane in one day
1.7 x 1017	42 Mt	total energy from the Sun that strikes the face of the Earth each second
1.8 x 1017	43 Mt	1 kilogram of antimatter + 1 kilogram of matter
2.1 x 1017	50 Mt	Tsar Bomba device (USSR, most powerful nuclear test ever)
3.6 x 1017	85 Mt	Earthquake 8.5 on the Richter scale
5.0 x 1017	120 Mt	Earthquake 8.6 on the Richter scale
5.5 x 1017	132 Mt	Relativistic weapon: 1 kilogram at 99% c
6.3 x 1017	150 Mt	1 Krakatoa = 6 Mount St. Helens
7.1 x 1017	161 Mt	Earthquake 8.7 on the Richter scale
1.0 x 1018	239 Mt	Earthquake 8.8 on the Richter scale
1.9 x 1018	454 Mt	Relativistic weapon: 1 kilogram at 99.9% c
2.0 x 1018	477 Mt	Earthquake 9.0 on the Richter scale
2.5 x 1018	600 Mt	1 Thera = 6 Krakatoas
2.8 x 1018	674 Mt	Earthquake 9.1 on the Richter scale
4.0 x 1018	952 Mt	Earthquake 9.2 on the Richter scale
4.0 x 1018		energy released by the 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake (between 9.1 and 9.3 on the Richter scale)
4.184 x 1018	1 gigaton	= 1000 megatons
6.3 x 1018	1.5 Gt	Relativistic weapon: 1 kilogram at 99.99% c
1.1 x 1019	3 Gt	Earthquake 9.5 on the Richter scale
1.8 x 1020	43 Gt	1 metric ton of antimatter + 1 metric ton of matter
4.184 x 1021	1 teraton	= 1000 gigatons = 1e6 megatons
1.5 x 1022	4 Tt	total energy from the Sun that strikes the face of the Earth each day
2.5 x 1022	6 Tt	1 Shoemaker-Levy = 10,000 Theras
1.4 x 1023	33 Tt	total energy output of Wolf 359 each second (bolometric luminosity)
2.0 x 1023	48 Tt	Solar flare
3.4 x 1023	80 Tt	= 80,000 gigatons = 8e7 megatons, 1 Dinosaur Killer = 13 Shoemaker-Levys
5.0 x 1023	120 Tt	1 Chicxulub Crater = 20 Shoemaker-Levys
3.0 x 1024	720 Tt	1 Wilkes Land crater = 6 Chicxulub Craters

[moot]

4.184 x 1024	1 petaton	= 1000 teratons
5.5 x 1024	1 Pt	total energy from the Sun that strikes the face of the Earth each year
3.2 x 1026	77 Pt	Energy required blow off Terra's atmosphere into space
3.9 x 1026	92 Pt	total energy output of the Sun each second (bolometric luminosity)
4.0 x 1026	96 Pt	total energy output of a Type-II civilization (Kardashev scale) each second
6.6 x 1026	158 Pt	Energy required to heat all the oceans of Terra to boiling
4.184 x 1027	1 exaton	= 1000 petatons
4.5 x 1027	1 Et	Energy required to vaporize all the oceans of Terra into the atmosphere
7.0 x 1027	2 Et	Energy required to vaporize all the oceans of Terra and dehydrate the crust
2.9 x 1028	7 Et	Energy required to melt the (dry) crust of Terra
1.0 x 1029	24 Et	Energy required blow off Terra's oceans into space
2.1 x 1029	50 Et	Earth's rotational energy
1.5 x 1030	359 Et	Energy required blow off Terra's crust into space
4.184 x 1030	1 zettaton	= 1000 exatons
2.9 x 1031	7 Zt	Energy required to blow up Terra (reduce to gravel orbiting the sun)
3.3 x 1031	8 Zt	total energy output of the Sun each day
3.3 x 1031	8 Zt	total energy output of Beta Centauri each second (bolometric luminosity)
5.9 x 1031	14 Zt	Energy required to blow up Terra (reduce to gravel flying out of former orbit)
1.2 x 1032	29 Zt	total energy output of Deneb each second (bolometric luminosity)
2.9 x 1032	69 Zt	Energy required to blow up Terra (reduce to gravel and move pieces to infinity)
4.184 x 1033	1 yottaton	= 1000 zettatons
1.2 x 1034	3 Yt	total energy output of the Sun each year
4.184 x 1036	1 x 1027 tons	= 1,000 yottatons
5.0 x 1036	1.2 x 1027 tons	total energy output of the Milky Way galaxy each second (bolometric luminosity)
4.0 x 1037	9.6 x 1027 tons	total energy output of a Type-III civilization (Kardashev scale) each second
6.0 x 1037	1.4 x 1028 tons	Nova Persei
1.2 x 1038	2.9 x 1028 tons	total energy output of the Sun in ten thousand years
4.184 x 1039	1 x 1030 tons	= 1,000,000 yottatons
1.0 x 1040	2.0 x 1030 tons	one second's worth of output from a quasar
1.0 x 1042	2.7 x 1032 tons	Energy in photons from a type I supernova = 0.01 foe
1.0 x 1042	2.7 x 1032 tons	total energy output of the Local Supercluster each second (bolometric luminosity)
4.184 x 1042	1 x 1033 tons	= 1,000,000,000 yottatons
3.0 x 1043	7.0 x 1033 tons	Energy needed to make the local superbubble (Supernova Geminga) = 0.3 foe
1.0 x 1044		1 Foe (ten to the Fifty-One Ergs, unit of supernova strength)
1.0 x 1044	2.4 x 1034 tons	Energy in neutrinos from a type I supernova = 1 foe = 2.4 x 1034 tons
1.3 x 1044	3.1 x 1034 tons	Total radiant energy from the Sun (approximately ten billion years worth)
3.0 x 1044	7.2 x 1034 tons	Energy in photons from a type II supernova = 1.3 foes
1.0 x 1045	2.4 x 1035 tons	Gamma-ray burster = 10 foes
1.0 x 1046	2.0 x 1036 tons	Energy in photons from a hypernova = 100 foes
3.0 x 1046	7.0 x 1036 tons	Energy in neutrinos from a type II supernova = 300 foes
1.0 x 1048	2.4 x 1038 tons	Energy in neutrinos from a hypernova = 10,000 foes
2.0 x 1049	4.8 x 1039 tons	total energy output of all the stars in the observable universe each second (bolometric luminosity)
3.0 x 1069		Big Bang (interpretation two)

[dunnrite]

I'm smart, but I can't read well between the lines.  Would you care to elaborate?  Are you saying that I am wrong?

-Penguin

I think he's trying to say that you're the most annoying know-it-all kid this BBS has seen in a long time (possibly ever).

Maybe that's just my interpretation.

[VonMessa]

I thought a bolt of lightning was 1.21 Gigawattts?   

[dedalos]

Example:
Astronomers see broadened spectral lines that indicate velocity dispersion of 1000s km/sec. These must come from "things" close to a very compact gravitational source (nothing else can create such a dispersion That we know of) - depicted as clouds in what is called the "broad line region". From analysis of the variation in brightness in time astronomers think theyknow the distance between the central bright light source and reflecting clouds around it - echoes of these variations are seen in the reflected light. From the statistics of how many of these objects appear highly obscured and in how many the light reaches us without much in the way we know that there is thick material around the central source that cover a certain fraction of the sphere around it (depicted as a torus in the images). and so on.

OK, I ll ask you then.  Do you think they know and understand everything that describes a black hole, its creation and its behavior?  And if they do, why can't they come into agreement with each other?

[thundabooge]

I thought a bolt of lightning was 1.21 Gigawattts?