Author Topic: Seafire Vs SpitV (2011)  (Read 4570 times)

Offline Noir

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Re: Seafire Vs SpitV (2011)
« Reply #60 on: April 13, 2011, 01:44:31 AM »
Well in my case, if I want to compare the SpitV and the Seafire performance INGAME, the data provided by HTC is utterly useless.
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Offline FLS

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Re: Seafire Vs SpitV (2011)
« Reply #61 on: April 13, 2011, 07:18:21 AM »
Well in my case, if I want to compare the SpitV and the Seafire performance INGAME, the data provided by HTC is utterly useless.

What is it you need that you're not getting?

Offline Noir

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Re: Seafire Vs SpitV (2011)
« Reply #62 on: April 13, 2011, 07:32:06 AM »
that wasn't well formulated.

the weight of the plane tells me nothing, I'd rather see "50% fuel, no DT, and standard guns"
Also I have a hard time believing that a plane and its navy version have the same exact performance.

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Offline FLS

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Re: Seafire Vs SpitV (2011)
« Reply #63 on: April 13, 2011, 07:57:06 AM »
They don't have the same exact performance. They have the same climb rate at the same weight. Since the Spit5 is lighter for a given fuel load it likely has better performance.

What you suggest would be useful but it would still be misleading with similar models like the F4u's and P-47's with different fuel capacities.

Offline moot

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Re: Seafire Vs SpitV (2011)
« Reply #64 on: April 13, 2011, 01:44:01 PM »
It doesn't change the fact that in practice, laymen reliably misread these particular charts' meaning.  So if the current choice of charts is what's best, a caption should be added to set laymen straight.   

And maybe have another set of charts showing what the average layman player expects to see - standard AH hangar configurations.  It'd be a piece of work to figure out which configuration to use as standard, but if it could be done it would be useful IMO.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2011, 01:46:05 PM by moot »
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Offline dtango

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Re: Seafire Vs SpitV (2011)
« Reply #65 on: April 13, 2011, 01:45:43 PM »
Krusty why are you trying so hard to justify your sloppy homework?  You don’t get extra credit for that :).  Moot, Noir – flee my friends, flee before you get sucked into a black hole of intellectual oblivion!   Apparently some are convinced we’ve moved the argument from the “wrongness” of the FM to the “wrongness” of the charts.  Fine, we’ll play by those rules for now.

The argument is the AH charts are wrong because they don’t represent what the weight of the aircraft would probably be in-game.  

Here’s the thing.  It doesn’t matter what the probability of a given weight is.  The performance of a plane in-game is based EXACTLY on its EXACT weight at that EXACT moment in time!  The probability of it being that weight at that time doesn’t change the fact the plane is at that weight.

Here’s an imperfect but simple analogy.  Kobe Bryant plays basketball.  In his last 5 games he scored: 20, 25, 24, 31, & 27 points.  He averages 25.2 points/game.  The fact that on average he scores 25.2 pts/game doesn’t determine what he actually scores in-game.  His in-game performance is exactly what his performance in that specific game was- 20, 25, 24, 31, & 27 pts!

Now let’s compare Kobe Bryan vs. Dewayne Wade.  
On average: Bryant- 25.2 vs. Wade- 25.5 pts/game.  

But what did they actually score the 2x's they played this year?  
Bryant- 17, 24 pts vs. Wade 18, 20 pts.  

What their statistical scoring average is doesn’t change what they actually scored in those specific games.

Should I go on?  Trust me, it gets even worse from here.  There’s even more to dismantle in the house of cards if we pursue it.
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Offline RTHolmes

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Re: Seafire Vs SpitV (2011)
« Reply #66 on: April 13, 2011, 02:34:49 PM »
It'd be a piece of work to figure out which configuration to use as standard, but if it could be done it would be useful IMO.

it would have to be meaningful, which is why I suggested 20mins fuel at Mil, at 10k, MA fuel burn. its enough to fight using WEP and get home, minimum useful endurance. are there any planes which cant manage 20mins at Mil on internal?
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Offline moot

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Re: Seafire Vs SpitV (2011)
« Reply #67 on: April 13, 2011, 03:39:08 PM »
That's what I've used too.  I don't understand Tango's point yet though...
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Offline dtango

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Re: Seafire Vs SpitV (2011)
« Reply #68 on: April 13, 2011, 03:47:34 PM »
That's what I've used too.  I don't understand Tango's point yet though...
Cute vid moot  :neener: ... EDIT: but I like my Sponge Bob one better!

Honest question, do you think the current charts are wrong?  Or do you think they are useless?  Useless vs. wrong aren't the same things.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2011, 03:50:41 PM by dtango »
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Offline Noir

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Re: Seafire Vs SpitV (2011)
« Reply #69 on: April 13, 2011, 04:04:19 PM »
its not a matter of right or wrong, it is a matter of useful or not. If I want to know the max level speed of lancs with 25% at 20K and 14x1000kg do I have to take it to the training arena and spend 10mins testing? Or just spawn, check the weight in the E6B and power up the HP48G calculator?  :x
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Offline dtango

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Re: Seafire Vs SpitV (2011)
« Reply #70 on: April 13, 2011, 04:37:40 PM »
OK :).  Just so we're clear though, you do realize Krusty is saying the charts are both useless and wrong.  I've been dealing with the right/wrong part.

But let's address the useless part.  I think you're saying that normalizing the charts to some abstract common denominator is more useful when comparing airplanes right? (e.g. all charts should be for 25% fuel).  There's some usefulness in this.  I understand it completely.  It's like in my analogy comparing Bryant & Wade:

Bryant 25.2 ppg vs. Wade 25.5 ppg

Normalized to a per-game basis it gives us some sense of how good they are and how they match up.  It would be reasonable to conclude that they look like pretty comparable players with the slight edge to Wade.  This is useful.  I agree.

But it starts falling apart if you think it's useful to determine what your in-game performance will be for each and every encounter.  That's what FLS is hinting at.  We can drill this further if you'd like but I'll stop here for brevity.  The point is the "usefulness" of this approach of charting is also limited. 
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"At times it seems like people think they can chuck bunch of anecdotes into some converter which comes up with the flight model." (Wmaker)

Offline moot

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Re: Seafire Vs SpitV (2011)
« Reply #71 on: April 13, 2011, 04:46:17 PM »
Cute vid moot  :neener: ... EDIT: but I like my Sponge Bob one better!

Honest question, do you think the current charts are wrong?  Or do you think they are useless?  Useless vs. wrong aren't the same things.
I think they're correct, and useful, but inadvertently misleading to non-aeroheads who mistake their specific intended usefulness.  I don't think they're wrong.  I'm working on other stuff, I'll have something to add once I understand what you mean in previous reply.
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Offline dtango

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Re: Seafire Vs SpitV (2011)
« Reply #72 on: April 13, 2011, 05:05:14 PM »
I think they're correct, and useful, but inadvertently misleading to non-aeroheads who mistake their specific intended usefulness.  I don't think they're wrong.  I'm working on other stuff, I'll have something to add once I understand what you mean in previous reply.
Fair 'nuff moot.  I'll await your reply.
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Offline moot

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Re: Seafire Vs SpitV (2011)
« Reply #73 on: April 13, 2011, 05:11:26 PM »
And yeah useless is exaggerated.. It would mean that we are no better off than if we had nothing.  I don't think so < an understatement.
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Offline FLS

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Re: Seafire Vs SpitV (2011)
« Reply #74 on: April 13, 2011, 06:19:46 PM »
So all we want is a chart generator based on current game data where we can specify the loadout and get climb rate, speed, turn rate, and turn radius.   :devil