Pacific Thunder mid tour stats

[1Duke1]

[EDIT: replied to Oldman as Shifty was posting]

May be... But Karnak is right in that the real world allows you to tell what way a plane is facing and moving at much greater ranges. Here it's all or nothing until you're already comitted and can do nothing about it.

You try the same setups right after these, but with standard vision (standard 6.0 icons) and you'll have a different outcome, I'd wager. Different planes would rule the arena.

Sorry Krusty, but this is just not true. 

[Puma44]

Krusty I'm no real world fighter pilot, however during my years in the USAF I was very fortunate to get the chance to ride as a backseater in an F-16 during mock air to air fighting and twice in the right seat of A-37s. I'm not poo pooing on what you're saying I am saying that while pulling Gs watching your altitude and air speed and trying not to kill yourself, your opponent's aircraft is much harder to see  track and attack than most people think. Visually analyzing a hard maneuvering airplane from the ground and analyzing a hard maneuvering airplane in another hard maneuvering airplane is very difficult. If it wasn't we'd all be fighter pilots. While I was an A-10 crew chief our pilots would regularly put black tape over their rank insignia when doing air to air training. Things like metallic Captain's bars could reflect light making a flash on the canopy and cause the pilot to mistake it for the sun reflecting off his opponents canopy. Of course these were Hog pilots and they needed all the help they could get in air to air stuff.    Most real fighter pilots will tell you it's the one you don't see that gets you. Not to mention they paint all these aircraft in low visibility schemes for a reason. I agree with you though no enemy icons is probably much more difficult than real life visually, but I'd also say big red icons out to 6k are too simplistic. I know a real world fighter pilot's opinion and there are a couple in the community would be much better to use for this discussion than my limited experiances.

<S>

You're absolutely right, Shifty!  ......lose sight, lose fight.

[Shifty]

Better equipment doesn't necessarily equate to better skills.  Shifty and I have talked about this offline at great length.

Yep the more I upgrade the worse I get. 

[Puma44]

It all comes down to the fundamentals; BFM.  The individual computer system is going to have some effect on visual lookout.  Once the visual is obtained and BFM is used effectively, it's then a matter of good guns tracking and lead for the kill shot against the guy who made the first mistake.  My problem is this wise acre crew chief assigned to my ride keeps loading smurf bullets. 

Check Six!   

[Krusty]

Shifty, what you're talking about is after the merge. The problem is BFM are nearly impossible if all you get is a dot on the screen with no heading, angle, or direction until it's already too late.

I agree with "lose sight, lose the fight" -- and this remains true even with icons enabled. I've lost sight in the MA many times and it has cost me dearly.

You seem to think that BFM and basic flight tactics and whatnot don't work with icons enabled. This is a false assumption and historic manuvers prove just as useful and just as effective in AH as they do in the real world. Icons don't give you anything. They make up for a LACK of something.

The few die hard no-icons folks you all have in the AvA seem to not listen to any comments contrary to the no-icon doctrine, IMO. Karnak says "Icons change the results" and you reply "you need to try harder" -- maybe he does need to try harder to get the same result but it doesn't negate the truth in his comment.


No offense meant. Being honest here.

[Shifty]

You seem to think that BFM and basic flight tactics and whatnot don't work with icons enabled. This is a false assumption and historic manuvers prove just as useful and just as effective in AH as they do in the real world. Icons don't give you anything. They make up for a LACK of something.

I believe you're making an assumption on me there. I don't believe this at all. I don't know where I've posted anything stating this as my belief or assumption. I was just giving you my limited experiance in actual mock air to air engagements. Which again is very limited and a long time ago when I was a much younger man. I was very surprised how hard the other guy was to see before or after the merge. I'm not against icons in the AVA so don't assume I'm debating you trying to prove a point. Actually I prefer icons but limited as in the FSO but it's not my decision to make.

<S>

PS I love those FW-190 profiles you did for BOG. Those were freaking sweet, I envy your talent.

[Puma44]

This is a recurring discussion.  Do I want realism with no icons or do I want to have icon banners that make up for system limitations?  We have several other arenas that have the icons turned on 24/7 which gives everyone a lot of options. So, it begs the question.  Why the continued issue about the current no icon AvA setup which provides one more additional option for AH game play?

As far as visual lookout, the in game differences with visual acuity are similar to any given day out in the real world with the many varied lighting and weather conditions.  In the day and now, pilots have the same problems with picking up a dot and trying to determine if it is coming or going. It's a matter of watching the dot and it's relative movement on the canopy.  If it stays in the same spot and is getting bigger, you are going to occupy the same airspace in the future.  If it's moving back you are going to be in front.  If it's moving forward, you are going to be in back of the dot. It's simply a matter of keeping your eye on the dot.  Then, as it gets larger, VID it, and start the conversion/BFM into a firing solution if it happens to be a bandit.

Yeah, the modern day fighters have all the technology to pickup BVR, EID, and shoot a long way out.  But, if someone gets in close in today's environment, it's once again a visual fight and time to keep an eye on the dot.

Just some thoughts........

Check Six!

[Nr_RaVeN]

Its amazing that the critics of the AVA and no icons  very rarely if ever fly in it.

Yet speak as if they have more experience than those of us that fly in there every night.

Let me tell you this if I couldn't tell the direction of a dot and couldn't set my self up until it was 'to late' I wouldn't return to the arena night after night.

 Further if it was so impossible and sucked so bad with no icons then the arena wouldn't draw the caliber of sticks and squads that frequent the arena.

Are no icons challenging?... Yup that's what makes it so much fun, and a refreshing change from the status quo.

There are many many more ways to ascertain the position of a Dots/cons direction other than  from a glowing red icon. Why hold others back because you don't yet understand how?

Will you get your wings blown off in the AVA at first?.... Yep, sure will. Against an experienced no icon pilot you will get eaten alive. No question.

But think about this, if others can do well in there, eventually so will you.

Its not that no icons is elite or anything like that. Its just different. It requires a new set of skills to become proficient. Skills that some would rather criticise than try to learn.
That's narrow minded IMO. To each their own.

Its simply not right to criticise something because you cant do it well due to lack of experience, or because your not willing to try.

Or use a lame excuse about not knowing a dots heading because there is no icon spoon feeding you distance from 6k out.. how much time do you need...


When I start to see the critics of the AVA actually flying in it  frequently enough to develop a well informed opinion and gain some first hand experience, I'll have more respect for the off the cuff "Opinions"



 

[gyrene81]

quick, someone toss raven a twinkie!!! he's going through sugar withdrawals

here raven...look at this for a while

[USRanger]

 

[Puma44]

Its amazing that the critics of the AVA and no icons  very rarely if ever fly in it.

Yet speak as if they have more experience than those of us that fly in there every night.

Let me tell you this if I couldn't tell the direction of a dot and couldn't set my self up until it was 'to late' I wouldn't return to the arena night after night.

 Further if it was so impossible and sucked so bad with no icons then the arena wouldn't draw the caliber of sticks and squads that frequent the arena.

Are no icons challenging?... Yup that's what makes it so much fun, and a refreshing change from the status quo.

There are many many more ways to ascertain the position of a Dots/cons direction other than  from a glowing red icon. Why hold others back because you don't yet understand how?

Will you get your wings blown off in the AVA at first?.... Yep, sure will. Against an experienced no icon pilot you will get eaten alive. No question.

But think about this, if others can do well in there, eventually so will you.

Its not that no icons is elite or anything like that. Its just different. It requires a new set of skills to become proficient. Skills that some would rather criticise than try to learn.
That's narrow minded IMO. To each their own.

Its simply not right to criticise something because you cant do it well due to lack of experience, or because your not willing to try.

Or use a lame excuse about not knowing a dots heading because there is no icon spoon feeding you distance from 6k out.. how much time do you need...


When I start to see the critics of the AVA actually flying in it  frequently enough to develop a well informed opinion and gain some first hand experience, I'll have more respect for the off the cuff "Opinions"



  

Well said, Raven!  It is beyond comprehension why some come in and P & M about no icons when, like you said, they don't frequent the AvA.  I don't care for icons at all, but I have enough respect for other's right to enjoy their $14.95 a month to play the way they want and don't go over to the other forums to complain about icons.

It wouldn't bother me to have all the icons turned off in the AvA.  The more realistic the better as far as I'm concerned.  But, that's a whole other discussion.   

[Oldman731]

As far as visual lookout, the in game differences with visual acuity are similar to any given day out in the real world with the many varied lighting and weather conditions.  In the day and now, pilots have the same problems with picking up a dot and trying to determine if it is coming or going. It's a matter of watching the dot and it's relative movement on the canopy.  If it stays in the same spot and is getting bigger, you are going to occupy the same airspace in the future.  If it's moving back you are going to be in front.  If it's moving forward, you are going to be in back of the dot. It's simply a matter of keeping your eye on the dot.  Then, as it gets larger, VID it, and start the conversion/BFM into a firing solution if it happens to be a bandit.

I have not been a real-world fighter pilot like Puma and 1Duke1, but in general aviation aircraft the technique is the same as described here.  Icons don't really tell you anything more than rate of closure (or separation), certainly not heading or altitude changes.

- oldman

[Puma44]

I have not been a real-world fighter pilot like Puma and 1Duke1, but in general aviation aircraft the technique is the same as described here.  Icons don't really tell you anything more than rate of closure (or separation), certainly not heading or altitude changes.

- oldman

I'm not either, Oldman. Just listened and learned a lot from those who know what they are talking about.  But, thanks for the compliment.   You are spot on though, Oldman. But, whether it be a dot in the air or an icon on the screen, one, with practice, can deduce a lot about the bandit's altitude and heading.    

[Shane]

When I start to see the critics of the AVA actually flying in it  frequently enough to develop a well informed opinion and gain some first hand experience, I'll have more respect for the off the cuff "Opinions"

uhhhhh......

 

[jimson]

NO NO NO, not the icons vs no icons discussion again.

Look, we all know the PC can't replicate human eye site.

Let's just say the no icon setting is unrealistic in a more realistic looking way.