Wish: Keep the instruments visible.

[Krusty]

More and more newer planes are obscuring vital readouts or instruments so that they cannot be read unless you have track IR or are a contortionist with your hat views and hit 2 dozen key combinations.

This is a game. I want the info the game is giving me. Some of the newer redesigned planes obscure and hide important readouts. Things like engine boost on the 109E, I think, and the dials on the Ju87 completely hidden (okay, that's an "old model" but still). The 109K4 hides the ammo counter. The Brewster doesn't show engine RPM/MAP on the forward screen, for crying out loud! Some screens crowd the trim off the screen to some lower side view. Some hide the ammo counters. The Betty is terrible to fly because all your meters are on the other side of the cockpit! The ones on your side are hidden behind the stick! Somebody also mentioned problems with the B-25 in another thread, and I'll add to that there are others as well.


This is a GAME! It's not a simulation, as HTC has pointed out. We're not devoting our every waking hour to perfecting our knowledge of 1 airframe, as fighter pilots did in real life. We can't reach out by feel and locate every instrument with our eyes closed. We can't just move our heads a fraction of an inch to the side, dart our eyes down and in an instant get the readout for MAP or RPM or fill-in-the-blank. I fly nearly every plane in this game. I don't stick to just 1 ride. I like to enjoy all the wealth of options HTC has given us.


But it is really starting to get bad with the instruments. We need to give up this move towards historic placement of instruments, because frankly we're NOT using historic instruments. Drop the pretense! Most craft had terrible instrument layout... Many didn't HAVE half the instrument readouts we have! We're here to test pilot skill not pilot ability to locate dials on secondary screens. Just give us the info and let us fight the fight instead of mixing up head position views trying to find one tiny instrument! Give us the info we need in the forward instrument view!


That is how it USED to be! I'm not saying it has to look bad, just TRY to get it all in a nice layout! Historic layouts be damned, in the real world you could glance over all the dials in a moment, and I want to do the same!

[Bronk]

Bit of hyperbole there krusty i dont think you need to "hit 2 dozen key combinations" to view gauges.

[Wayout]

This is a game. I want the info the game is giving me. Some of the newer redesigned planes obscure and hide important readouts. it has to look bad, just TRY to get it all in a nice layout!

...Historic layouts be damned, in the real world you could glance over all the dials in a moment...

+1

[Krusty]

Bit of hyperbole there krusty i dont think you need to "hit 2 dozen key combinations" to view gauges.

Of course you don't. I was exaggerating, and it's rather obvious, but you still have to often enter another view mode (F8?) then adjust head positions front, back, up, down, left, or right (or 5 out of those 6) while adjusting angle with hat or view keys to see some of them. Definitely a frustrating hassle.

[Krusty]

+1

Bit of a misquote there, I said it doesn't have to look bad   

[gyrene81]

This is a GAME! It's not a simulation, as HTC has pointed out. We're not devoting our every waking hour to perfecting our knowledge of 1 airframe, as fighter pilots did in real life. We can't reach out by feel and locate every instrument with our eyes closed. We can't just move our heads a fraction of an inch to the side, dart our eyes down and in an instant get the readout for MAP or RPM or fill-in-the-blank. I fly nearly every plane in this game. I don't stick to just 1 ride. I like to enjoy all the wealth of options HTC has given us.

But it is really starting to get bad with the instruments. We need to give up this move towards historic placement of instruments, because frankly we're NOT using historic instruments. Drop the pretense! Most craft had terrible instrument layout... Many didn't HAVE half the instrument readouts we have! We're here to test pilot skill not pilot ability to locate dials on secondary screens. Just give us the info and let us fight the fight instead of mixing up head position views trying to find one tiny instrument! Give us the info we need in the forward instrument view!

does this mean you're going to quit arguing about every little technical aspect...and not bust someone's chops when they get some technical detail wrong? it's just a game, not a simulation...why worry about the historical ammuntion/ordnance loadouts? it's not a simulation, what difference does it make if the plane is 100 lbs under or 1000 lbs over weight in ah?

This is a game. I want the info the game is giving me. Some of the newer redesigned planes obscure and hide important readouts. Things like engine boost on the 109E, I think, and the dials on the Ju87 completely hidden (okay, that's an "old model" but still). The 109K4 hides the ammo counter. The Brewster doesn't show engine RPM/MAP on the forward screen, for crying out loud! Some screens crowd the trim off the screen to some lower side view. Some hide the ammo counters. The Betty is terrible to fly because all your meters are on the other side of the cockpit! The ones on your side are hidden behind the stick! Somebody also mentioned problems with the B-25 in another thread, and I'll add to that there are others as well.

it's just a game, why are you worried about the rpm/map gauge? why worry about the trim, let the plane trim itself using one of the x key combos. the only gauges you really need are altimeter, airspeed, fuel, artificial horizon, gear indicator lights...you're never going to overspeed the engine and blow it.


i guess historical accuracy should only be applied when it's...convenient for krusty.

[Krusty]

Geebus man, learn the quote function!

Also, major fail on your attempt to spin this around to insult me.

[gyrene81]

your op is nothing more than "give me historical accuracy when it's convenient for me"...if the truth is insulting then...so be it.

[tf15pin]

Between the mouse views and a hat switch with up, down, left, and right translations mapped I don't think it is much of a problem to see any instruments. For all the fuss about using accurate skins I would expect everyone to be flipping out that we have ammo counters in our cockpits. Each new cockpit looks better than the last so why spoil something good.

-1

[BnZs]

The principle remains that instruments should be easily visible, in flight, without moving from the default forward view. In R/L you only have to move your eyes a nanometer, after all. Photo-realism in cockpit layout is worthily subordinated to realism in actually being able to usefully read your instruments.

In particular, several cockpits have the G-meter hidden in any conceivable view, which is problematic since, lacking the tactile sensation of actually having our butts in the seat, it is the only reliable clue to G-loading we have.

[gyrene81]

The principle remains that instruments should be easily visible, in flight, without moving from the default forward view. In R/L you only have to move your eyes a nanometer, after all. Photo-realism in cockpit layout is worthily subordinated to realism in actually being able to usefully read your instruments.

In particular, several cockpits have the G-meter hidden in any conceivable view, which is problematic since, lacking the tactile sensation of actually having our butts in the seat, it is the only reliable clue to G-loading we have.

you would have to move your head, if just slightly in some aircraft to see certain instruments...

maybe true historically accurate instrument panel layouts would be better...
http://www.airpages.ru/eng/img/abb1.shtml

take a look at where the ammunition counters were on a 109-k4...
http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/bf109cockpit/AmmoCounters.html



didn't know there were g meters in the instrument panels...   does it actually say g-meter?

[Krusty]

No Gyrene, your objection doesn't hold any water at all on this one.

Most aircraft in WW2 time didn't HAVE half the instruments we have. Artificial horizons were rare. Heck, turn and bank needles were often rare. Many times instruments just didn't function. Fuel dials had only to show when empty, but could give any reading when the tanks were full, the only 2 semi-reliable readouts you'll find in most planes are boost and rpm. Forget about radios! Most planes in the war didn't have those either! Should we remove vox?

I repeat, this is a game, not a sim! It doesn't simulate the experiences of war-time pilots and what they had to learn. Go fly "B-17" if you want that level of detail. This game gives us the tools of WW2. It gives us the means to test our skills and abilities. It's not an exercise in who can play with head views more to read instruments.

At a glance we should be able to see all we need to to decide our course of action. It is the human decision we make that determines of we live or die (virtually speaking), not our ability to read (or not read) something off the screen.

Given that HTC has up to this point made an effort to give us the info we need to make our combat-oriented decisions in an informed manner (i.e. "do I stay for another fight?" or "I'm losing oil now, I see a chance to break off, what's my oil pressure? Can I make it home?" or "How many taters do I have left?"). HTC has already made their stand with what info they want to give us, and have standardized this across all aircraft. I wish they would stick to this and not hide certain parts of this.

You are putting words in my mouth about historical accuracy issues. It's what is available in the real world. You only need a flick of the eye. Here it doesn't work that way. I can't help but think you're trying to sling mud or bring up ulterior motives when you make such insinuations/accusations.

[hitech]

Krusty: What are your FOV and Res settings in your video setup?

I see the ammo counters fine in the K4.

HiTech

[DemonFox]

Eh... I can see where you are coming from Krusty but I can also see what Gyrene means. Truth be told I like the set up we have now

-1 keep system

[Krusty]

Krusty: What are your FOV and Res settings in your video setup?

I see the ammo counters fine in the K4.

HiTech

default 1280x1024, the ammo counters are behind the stick on that example. You have to look around the 3D stick or bank hard one way to move it away from the ammo box that has the number inside it.

[Edit: I think it's the K-4. I can't check right now, not at home. One of the 109s has the ammo counters obscured]


Demon: You misunderstand. We already have this in place, it's been here since day 1 pretty much. I want to keep it in place. I'm not advocating change as much as advocating keeping the original philosophy in effect.