Author Topic: SSD's with built in RAID.....Is it a worthy PC upgrade?  (Read 1398 times)

Offline TequilaChaser

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SSD's with built in RAID.....Is it a worthy PC upgrade?
« on: June 05, 2011, 05:45:49 PM »
I recently was blessed with a Birthday gift from my 2 Daughters, which they told me to order whatever I wanted PC Component wise and they would pay for it....since I like to build my own computers instead of using prebuilt or brand name PC's........  anyways below is what I picked out that my girls bought for me for my b-day present , so I could assemble it...... Also, I took almost a week trying to figure out which SSD to pick or if I should pick one at all???? and all the reading gave me migraines

I was stuck on some specs & user reviews that kept saying stuff like, although it is a 100 gig HD, you actually end up with like (4) 25 Gig HD that is in RAID 0 or something to that effect......

If I was to get a SSD-HD...... what interface should I get?  SATA II ( 3.0 Gb/s ) , SATA III ( 6.0 Gb/s ), PCI xpress 1 or PCI xpress 4

my first choice I was really leaning toward was this PCIex4 version............  but if I am only able to use 1/4 of the SSD's capacity then I think it is really a waste of money for anything under 200 gigs if it is
set up in a RAID 0 or RAID 0 + 1 type setup.........


my birthday gift computer build specs:

Quote
TC's New Computer Specs:

Monitor:
ASUS VE278Q Black 27" 1920x1080 2ms Full HD HDMI LED Backlight LCD Monitor w/Speakers 300 cd/m2 ASCR 10,000,000:1
newegg link: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824236103

Case:
Thermaltake Level 10 GT (VN10001W2N) Black SECC / Plastic ATX Full Tower Computer Case
newegg link: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811133188

PSU:
PC Power and Cooling Silencer Mk II 950W High Performance 80PLUS Silver SLI CrossFire ready Power Supply
newegg link: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817703028

Motherboard:
ASUS M4A89TD PRO/USB3 AM3 AMD 890FX SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 ATX AMD Motherboard
newegg link: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131655

CPU:
AMD Phenom II X4 975 Black Edition Deneb 3.6GHz 4 x 512KB L2 Cache 6MB L3 Cache Socket AM3 125W Quad-Core Desktop Processor HDZ975FBGMBOX
newegg link: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103923

CPU Heatsink & Fan(s):
CORSAIR CAFA70 120mm Dual-Fan CPU Cooler (set up to push/pull through heatsink )
newegg link: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835181011

System Memory:
CORSAIR Vengeance 16GB (4 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800) Desktop Memory Model CMZ16GX3M4A1600C9B
newegg link: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820145347

Graphics Card:
XFX HD-687A-ZDFC Radeon HD 6870 1GB 256-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 2.1 x16 HDCP Ready CrossFireX Support Video Card with Eyefinity
newegg link: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814150521

Optical Drive 1:
ASUS Black 12X BD-R 2X BD-RE 16X DVD+R 12X DVD-RAM 8X BD-ROM 8MB Cache SATA Blu-ray Burner BW-12B1LT LightScribe Support
newegg link: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827135234

Optical Drive 2:
LG Black 10X BD-ROM 16X DVD-ROM 48X CD-ROM SATA Internal Blu-ray Drive  DVD-DL Rewriter LightScribe Support - Model UH12LS28
newegg link: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827136232

Media Card Reader:
Koutech IO-RCM621 All-in-one USB 2.0 3.5" USB 2.0 Front Panel Multi-format Card Reader with USB 2.0 Port
newegg link: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820162024

HDD 1:
Western Digital VelociRaptor WD4500HLHX 450GB 10000 RPM 32MB Cache SATA III 6.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive ( is Hot Swappable via the AHCI Controller & HotSwap Bays built into my Case )
newegg link: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136557 

HDD 2:( This will be Hot Swappable via the AHCI Controller & the HotSwap PnP Bays built into my Case )
HDD 3:( This will be Hot Swappable via the AHCI Controller & the HotSwap PnP Bays built into my Case )
HDD 4:( This will be Hot Swappable via the AHCI Controller & the HotSwap PnP Bays built into my Case )
HDD 5:( This will be Hot Swappable via the AHCI Controller & the HotSwap PnP Bays built into my Case )

External HD 1:
HITACHI X-Series 3TB 7200 rpm 32 mb cache / USB 2.0 External Hard Drive Model 0S03092
newegg link: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822145466

Media Device:
Western Digital WD TV Live Plus HD Media Player  Model WDBABX0000NBK-NESN
newegg link: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136593


NOTE: the WD 450Gig Velociraptor HD is temporary until I decide which SSD I want to use... I am undecided whether to use a PCIe-x4 SSD or SATA III SSD...
I am still researching it, but am leaning toward the following model of SSD at this time--- >

OCZ RevoDrive X2 OCZSSDPX-1RVDX0100 PCI-E 100GB PCI-Express x4 MLC Internal Solid State Drive (SSD)
newegg link: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820227659]

if any of you are using SSD's currently, or have some good solid info regarding how a person should setup an SSD HD ( regular IDE type storage use, or AHCI type, or setup in RAID 0, or setup in RAID 1, etc etc...... )

I would truely appreciate any help or info you could enlighten me to, please

Thank You


TC




"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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Re: SSD's with built in RAID.....Is it a worthy PC upgrade?
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2011, 06:11:48 PM »
I recently was blessed with a Birthday gift from my 2 Daughters, which they told me to order whatever I wanted PC Component wise and they would pay for it....since I like to build my own computers instead of using prebuilt or brand name PC's........  anyways below is what I picked out that my girls bought for me for my b-day present , so I could assemble it...... Also, I took almost a week trying to figure out which SSD to pick or if I should pick one at all???? and all the reading gave me migraines

I was stuck on some specs & user reviews that kept saying stuff like, although it is a 100 gig HD, you actually end up with like (4) 25 Gig HD that is in RAID 0 or something to that effect......

If I was to get a SSD-HD...... what interface should I get?  SATA II ( 3.0 Gb/s ) , SATA III ( 6.0 Gb/s ), PCI xpress 1 or PCI xpress 4

my first choice I was really leaning toward was this PCIex4 version............  but if I am only able to use 1/4 of the SSD's capacity then I think it is really a waste of money for anything under 200 gigs if it is
set up in a RAID 0 or RAID 0 + 1 type setup.........


my birthday gift computer build specs:

if any of you are using SSD's currently, or have some good solid info regarding how a person should setup an SSD HD ( regular IDE type storage use, or AHCI type, or setup in RAID 0, or setup in RAID 1, etc etc...... )

I would truely appreciate any help or info you could enlighten me to, please

Thank You


TC






Many SSDs today are already raid0 internally. One example is OCZ Revodrive II.

If I was shopping for a SSD there'd be only two routes - SATA III drive (if your motherboard supports SATA III, only the very latest ones do) or a Revodrive I or II. If your motherboard doesn't support SATA III then a revodrive is your only option for real performance. What purpose are you looking for with the raid? Are you looking for speed increase or redundancy? Generally SSDs are set up to raid 0 if anything. You should have regular backups of your data to some outside storage, a raid is not a reliable solution for data preservation.

Keep in mind that basically any decent SSD (Intel, OCZ, Crucial etc) will blow away your current spinner hdds. You're not going to need a raid to be impressed. At 2bucks/Gb a raid 1 is nothing but a great way to waste money.

What do you mean by not being able to use more than a quarter of capacity on the PCI-E x4?
« Last Edit: June 05, 2011, 06:21:26 PM by MrRiplEy[H] »
Definiteness of purpose is the starting point of all achievement. –W. Clement Stone

Offline gyrene81

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Re: SSD's with built in RAID.....Is it a worthy PC upgrade?
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2011, 06:23:49 PM »
ripley, check out the sustained and sequential read/write performance on the pci-e interface ssd tc pointed out...on the surface it looks like it's outperforming the sata3 ssd's on the sata 6gb interfaces. the mobo he is looking at will definitely handle whatever he wants to hook up to it...best amd chipset out, especially on the pci-e x16 bus...double the data path size of previous chipsets.

not a clue how the bios would recognize the drive as even existing on a pci-e interface...unless the raid controller acts like a 3rd party drive connector that the bios would recognize...
jarhed  
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Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett

Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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Re: SSD's with built in RAID.....Is it a worthy PC upgrade?
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2011, 06:39:00 PM »
ripley, check out the sustained and sequential read/write performance on the pci-e interface ssd tc pointed out...on the surface it looks like it's outperforming the sata3 ssd's on the sata 6gb interfaces. the mobo he is looking at will definitely handle whatever he wants to hook up to it...best amd chipset out, especially on the pci-e x16 bus...double the data path size of previous chipsets.

not a clue how the bios would recognize the drive as even existing on a pci-e interface...unless the raid controller acts like a 3rd party drive connector that the bios would recognize...

Yep but practical use scenario involves high random read/write counts. The Revodrive I is fast but not stellar compared to a SATA III ssd, a revo II is faster but also more expensive. Comparison example: http://www.neoseeker.com/Articles/Hardware/Reviews/OCZ_Agility_3/4.html
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Offline TequilaChaser

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Re: SSD's with built in RAID.....Is it a worthy PC upgrade?
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2011, 06:40:21 PM »
Many SSDs today are already raid0 internally. One example is OCZ Revodrive II.

What purpose are you looking for with the raid? Are you looking for speed increase or redundancy? Generally SSDs are set up to raid 0 if anything. What do you mean by not being able to use more than a quarter of capacity on the PCI-E x4?

I personally am not looking to use any RAID, since I am now retired , I do not much use my CAD Stuff or energy calculating programs anymore , or have a "Work Computer" with clients files on the HDD

as I mentioned in my opening post, I was reading user's reviews and feedback over at newegg , and saw a lot of feedback saying things like

"You only get 25 usable gigs on a 100 gig SSD due to the SSD being internally RAIDed like  in RAID 0 + 1 ( stripping and mirroring or whatever...... )

so my questions and concerns was whether these people were just blowing smoke with a bogus review, or if the reviews were honest to where one actually does not get the majority capacity use of a 64 gig, or 80 gig or 100 gig, 120 gig, 240 gig SSD??? they only get 1/2 of the reported capacity or 1/4 of the reported capacity because of the internal RAID formatted setup of the SSD

hope I am explaining / describing my question clearly, if not I'll try and go dig through the many pages of feedback/reviews of users who bought SSD's and reported this...... ( and will link/quote it here for you )


TC
« Last Edit: June 05, 2011, 06:41:58 PM by TequilaChaser »
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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Re: SSD's with built in RAID.....Is it a worthy PC upgrade?
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2011, 06:46:07 PM »
so my questions and concerns was whether these people were just blowing smoke with a bogus review

Very much so. They simply didn't have a clue. A Revodrive II with the internal raid0 is available at full capacity and nearly double the performance. All SSDs lose a little storage space to storage provisioning - it's a hidden cache of storage meant to replace dying flash cells when that happens. All SSD's have it and it eats up 10-17% of space on the drive - but you still get every Mb that they promise on the cover. Hence hidden cache.
Definiteness of purpose is the starting point of all achievement. –W. Clement Stone

Offline TequilaChaser

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Re: SSD's with built in RAID.....Is it a worthy PC upgrade?
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2011, 06:51:10 PM »
also, since you mentioned it Ripley,

I want the best performance with the biggest capacity ( I think ) at the cheapest price!!! ...... or would I be better off just using a small say 80 gig or 64 gig SSD for my Windows 7 OS only, with the SATA III 450 gig HD holding everything else?


I also am hesitant of only installing my OS ( Windows 7 ) on an SSD and installing all my other prgrams on a 2nd SATA III HD ( which would be my 450 gig Velociraptor HD posted above )........

is that feasible to do that, and would it trully save write & read on the SSD with programs being on a second drive other than the SSD?  same regarding your pagefile, is it really saving you if you use a SSD for your Windows 7 OS but locate the pagefile to a 2nd HD ????


Thanks for the replys......

TC
« Last Edit: June 05, 2011, 07:00:39 PM by TequilaChaser »
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline TequilaChaser

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Re: SSD's with built in RAID.....Is it a worthy PC upgrade?
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2011, 06:56:41 PM »
the mobo he is looking at will definitely handle whatever he wants to hook up to it...best amd chipset out, especially on the pci-e x16 bus...double the data path size of previous chipsets.

not a clue how the bios would recognize the drive as even existing on a pci-e interface...unless the raid controller acts like a 3rd party drive connector that the bios would recognize...


Heya Gyrene,

the above list is the PC I just built, done ordered it and am currently using it now


regarding the RED Text I quoted above: is there a reason that my MB will not pick up a PCIe x4 SSD as being a storage device?  

I do know sometimes one has to load drivers &/or controller files on a thumb drive or CD sometimes for certian devices......... it might be the same for this SSD, maybe......


thanks fer replying

TC

edit:
Very much so. They simply didn't have a clue.

thanks for the clarification, Ripley
« Last Edit: June 05, 2011, 06:58:42 PM by TequilaChaser »
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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Re: SSD's with built in RAID.....Is it a worthy PC upgrade?
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2011, 07:00:57 PM »
also, since you mentioned it Ripley,

I want the best performance with the biggest capacity ( I think ) ...... or would I be better off just using a small say 80 gig or 64 gig SSD for my Windows 7 OS only, with the SATA III 450 gig HD holding everything else?


I also am hesitant of only installing my OS ( Windows 7 ) on an SSD and installing all my other prgrams on a 2nd SATA III HD ( which would be my 450 gig Velociraptor HD posted above )........

is that feasible to do that, and would it trully save write & read on the SSD with programs being on a second drive other than the SSD?  same regarding your pagefile, is it really saving you if you use a SSD for your Windows 7 OS but locate the pagefile to a 2nd HD ????


Thanks for the replys......

TC

Windows 7 will detect and tune its functions according to SSD use. I wouldn't worry about the drive wear, current ssds are rated for 5 years of continuous use. Having said that there are multiple reports of drives dying in the first 12 months - but so is the case with regular hdds too, people just don't get so upset about losing a 80 dollar drive. Whatever you use you need to get frequent and reliable backups. Burn your digital pictures etc. to dvds for example and take them away from your house so a house fire won't destroy all your photos.

If you're looking for speed and capacity without losing an arm and a leg, I'd go for a large SATA III drive non-raid. If money is no option, OCZ Z-drive 1Tb yeah baby! :D

One thing I would seriously re-think is the velociraptor - a 2Tb Caviar Black benchmarks almost on par with it in gaming performance tests and it has a fraction of cost per megabyte compared to a velociraptor. http://www.silentpcreview.com/article1079-page4.html
« Last Edit: June 05, 2011, 07:13:50 PM by MrRiplEy[H] »
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Offline TequilaChaser

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Re: SSD's with built in RAID.....Is it a worthy PC upgrade?
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2011, 07:14:19 PM »
If you're looking for speed and capacity without losing an arm and a leg, I'd go for a large SATA III drive non-raid. If money is no option, OCZ Z-drive 1Tb yeah baby! :D

you are refering to SSD right?    a large capacity SATA III SSD?  

ROFL, OCZ Z-drive 1Tb SSD< I doubt my disability check for the rest of my life would pay for it, heh......

I already have the WD 450Gig SATA III Velociraptor HD.... am using it now

I already have an external 3 Tb HD........ just wish it was SATA III or 3.0 USB....  instead of it's actual 2.0 USB  takes for ever and a day to transfer large amounts of stuff


what is your thoughts regarding using the SSD ( a smaller one 80 or  64 gig ) just for my Windows 7 64bit OS????  and my 450gig HD for all other programs and pagefile ????  is it worth the potential problems that might pop up .......


regarding house fire, I done been down that road before...... our home burnt down back in 1980 and I pray none of you ever have to experience anything like that


TC
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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Re: SSD's with built in RAID.....Is it a worthy PC upgrade?
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2011, 07:19:45 PM »
you are refering to SSD right?    a large capacity SATA III SSD?  

ROFL, OCZ Z-drive 1Tb SSD< I doubt my disability check for the rest of my life would pay for it, heh......

I already have the WD 450Gig SATA III Velociraptor HD.... am using it now

I already have an external 3 Tb HD........ just wish it was SATA III or 3.0 USB....  instead of it's actual 2.0 USB  takes for ever and a day to transfer large amounts of stuff


what is your thoughts regarding using the SSD ( a smaller one 80 or  64 gig ) just for my Windows 7 64bit OS????  and my 450gig HD for all other programs and pagefile ????  is it worth the potential problems that might pop up .......


regarding house fire, I done been down that road before...... our home burnt down back in 1980 and I pray none of you ever have to experience anything like that


TC

If you're going to get a SSD go all the way on it. It means installing Win7 and your most used applications and games on it. That's the only way you can get real benefit from it - think about it. You boot to windows once a day but you load stuff to games or office documents all the time. So I would get a 240gb or so OCZ Agility or comparable drive and install the lots on it. Then would use the hdd for general storage of stuff not so frequently used.

Definately put your games on the SSD.
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Offline gyrene81

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Re: SSD's with built in RAID.....Is it a worthy PC upgrade?
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2011, 07:33:11 PM »
tc, normally a drive is identified to the bios by it's onboard controller being connected to a known drive interface like an ide or sata interface hardwired on the mobo...normally, if an interface type doesn't exist on the mobo, a controller card can be inserted into an expansion slot like an isa, vesa, pci or pci-e slot that would act as an onboard interface and thus identify the drive to the bios as being a valid storage device...the usb, firewire and e-sata interfaces have been designed to identify storage devices and peripherals based on the onboard device controller.

what puzzled me about the drive is that i neglected to consider the onboard controller (i.e. the whole drive) plugging directly in to the pci-e slot...  :headscratch:  the old saying a picture is worth a thousand words, i should heed more often than just when i have crayons in my hand...  :lol

also, look at the layout of the slots on that mobo you bought...if that is a pci-e x1 plug in then that drive is going to be right next to your graphics card potentially blocking airflow and heating up both the drive as well as the graphics card.

just personally, i'd go for the standard sata interface and save a few bucks...that ocz drive ripley showed the testing on looks fast enough for anything you're going to want. skuzzy had some interesting tips on how to run a ssd and standard drive to minimize some of the headaches around here somewhere...it was in a discussion on whether or not to run programs off the ssd or off the standard drive...


Yep but practical use scenario involves high random read/write counts. The Revodrive I is fast but not stellar compared to a SATA III ssd, a revo II is faster but also more expensive. Comparison example: http://www.neoseeker.com/Articles/Hardware/Reviews/OCZ_Agility_3/4.html
pardon me for being skeptical of that test...they tested a 1st gen revo against a 3rd gen agility...and all sata iii on sata 6gb interfaces...nothing on the revo x2 drive using a pci-e interface.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2011, 08:05:34 PM by gyrene81 »
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Offline TequilaChaser

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Re: SSD's with built in RAID.....Is it a worthy PC upgrade?
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2011, 07:48:39 PM »
Thanks Gyrene and Ripley for the info

yep Gyrene, that is why I was saying  that OCZ RevoDrive X2 PCIe x4   my VC is covering my PCIe x1 slot  but I am wideopen and clear for my PCIe X4 slot....... or I could even use it in my other PCIe x 16 slot if I had to..... ( have seen reports where several people have used their 2nd, 3rd or 4t PCIe x16 or x8 slot  to install their SSD Pcie x4  on )

I'll go search again and see if I can find out which thread Skuzzy posted tips in, that you are talking about......



side note: something I found very odd........ I had installed a 320 gig SATA II 7,200 rpm HD in my Mom's PC awhile back and it is partitioned in to (2) 160 gig partitions......... this thing is scoring 7.4 in the WEI on her PC....... while my new WD 450 gig SATA III Velociraptor 10,000 rpm HD is only scoring 5.9 WEI............ what gives here?  is it because of the capacity being so large verses her's being partitioned so it looks like it is only 160 gig HD in Windows 7? that kind of gave me heartburn  lol.....


thanks again,

TC
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline Masherbrum

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Re: SSD's with built in RAID.....Is it a worthy PC upgrade?
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2011, 10:46:14 PM »

Heya Gyrene,

the above list is the PC I just built, done ordered it and am currently using it now


regarding the RED Text I quoted above: is there a reason that my MB will not pick up a PCIe x4 SSD as being a storage device?  

I do know sometimes one has to load drivers &/or controller files on a thumb drive or CD sometimes for certian devices......... it might be the same for this SSD, maybe......


thanks fer replying

TC

edit:
thanks for the clarification, Ripley

Not all MB's recognize the Sandforce Revodrives.   Make sure you have the latest BIOS, etc and check the MB compatibility.
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Offline TequilaChaser

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Re: SSD's with built in RAID.....Is it a worthy PC upgrade?
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2011, 12:05:21 AM »
Not all MB's recognize the Sandforce Revodrives.   Make sure you have the latest BIOS, etc and check the MB compatibility.

heya Karaya,
Thanks for the heads up  / Tip


hope you and your Family are doing well, Jay  <S>


TC
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC