Author Topic: no icon for me,none for you  (Read 5227 times)

Offline Karnak

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Re: no icon for me,none for you
« Reply #75 on: June 20, 2011, 03:55:17 PM »
"SA" doesn't figure into it. Staying fast NOE and looking for someone "skylighted" and turning down your resolution to see dots better...all of this is a product of the great AvA "No icons" experiment.

It does not work. It introduces results that bear no resemblance to what real air combat was like, ever has been like, or ever could be like.


Ok, point taken.  I hardly claim that I can predict all of the outcomes.

Keep in mind that the OP's suggestion is even worse than the AvA because it would create a mixed environment, where some people had icons and some did not, making keeping the situation in mind even harder.
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Offline Vinkman

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Re: no icon for me,none for you
« Reply #76 on: June 22, 2011, 01:12:18 PM »
+1  :aok 

But I enjoy AvA since they went no icon.
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Offline jimson

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Re: no icon for me,none for you
« Reply #77 on: June 22, 2011, 07:45:57 PM »
This debate has been going on in the AvA since well here........

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,35286.0.html

Even having it in only AvA causes much gnashing of teeth.

The solution will be the new player hosted arenas, then there will be enough arenas to cater to everyones niche.

Offline lulu

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Re: no icon for me,none for you
« Reply #78 on: June 25, 2011, 05:35:19 PM »
Gents,

Pls don't smoke my smoke.

  :old:

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Offline gyrene81

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Re: no icon for me,none for you
« Reply #79 on: June 27, 2011, 01:25:55 PM »
BS.

I can easily tell the difference between a Piper and Cessna at over 2 miles...have done so numerous times real life.  Hell, I can even tell the difference between Cessna models...say 150 vs 206.  I have positively ID's a 747 at 12 miles (as called by ATC) and could even tell the airline (happened to be a Korean 747, all over blue)

No icons would be a perfect world if we could see as well in game, but we can't.  IMO using short icons is a good compromise.
i''m going to call a "partial b.s." on that. no doubt familiarity is key but unless you have an insanely superhuman ability to judge distance or you fly around with a military grade range finder, i could see a mile to mile and a half, but not 2 miles or beyond. even then determining a cessna 150 from a 206 at that range is not something that can be done without aide unless you were at such an angle as to be able to clearly see the landing gear and cabin area, not to mention being highly familiar with the aircraft. most of us don't have the aircraft familiarity experience let alone the flight time, but i've done the 1 mile and 1.5 mile veiwing of various aircraft with and without range finders, the obvious ones are easy but the similar types were more difficult and i can only imagine trying to properly identify single engine fighters a mile or more away that weren't painted bright white from inside a scratched and dirty canopy with the sun glaring down on you.
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Offline icepac

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Re: no icon for me,none for you
« Reply #80 on: June 27, 2011, 01:34:42 PM »
"No icon" would only work in axis vs allies and will not work in an arean where same plane types are on opposing sides.

That said, I like to turn the icon off when chasing and shooting a maneuvering plane.

Offline colmbo

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Re: no icon for me,none for you
« Reply #81 on: June 27, 2011, 05:38:51 PM »
i''m going to call a "partial b.s." on that. no doubt familiarity is key but unless you have an insanely superhuman ability to judge distance or you fly around with a military grade range finder, i could see a mile to mile and a half, but not 2 miles or beyond. even then determining a cessna 150 from a 206 at that range is not something that can be done without aide unless you were at such an angle as to be able to clearly see the landing gear and cabin area, not to mention being highly familiar with the aircraft. most of us don't have the aircraft familiarity experience let alone the flight time, but i've done the 1 mile and 1.5 mile veiwing of various aircraft with and without range finders, the obvious ones are easy but the similar types were more difficult and i can only imagine trying to properly identify single engine fighters a mile or more away that weren't painted bright white from inside a scratched and dirty canopy with the sun glaring down on you.

The 747 was 12 miles as called by ATC radar.   For the 150/206 comparison the distance was actually 10,600'...I know because I was sitting in a fire station at one end of the runway, the aircraft were at the other end.

I agree that my familiarity with aircraft helps in my ability to ID them.
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Offline JUGgler

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Re: no icon for me,none for you
« Reply #82 on: June 27, 2011, 10:44:44 PM »
In small quantities it is "kinda fun" in the AVA.  No icons in the MA would be a terrible nightmare. The AVA is a pickfest like the MA although you're getting picked by someone you never even see, imagine that X300 in the MA----> NO THANK YOU




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Offline Charge

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Re: no icon for me,none for you
« Reply #83 on: June 28, 2011, 02:43:07 AM »
Blah blah blah blah etc.

+1

-C+


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Offline Krusty

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Re: no icon for me,none for you
« Reply #84 on: June 28, 2011, 01:12:58 PM »
i''m going to call a "partial b.s." on that. no doubt familiarity is key but unless you have an insanely superhuman ability to judge distance or you fly around with a military grade range finder, i could see a mile to mile and a half, but not 2 miles or beyond. even then determining a cessna 150 from a 206 at that range is not something that can be done without aide unless you were at such an angle as to be able to clearly see the landing gear and cabin area, not to mention being highly familiar with the aircraft. most of us don't have the aircraft familiarity experience let alone the flight time, but i've done the 1 mile and 1.5 mile veiwing of various aircraft with and without range finders, the obvious ones are easy but the similar types were more difficult and i can only imagine trying to properly identify single engine fighters a mile or more away that weren't painted bright white from inside a scratched and dirty canopy with the sun glaring down on you.

I'm going to give you some advice a 3D animation instructor once gave me.

Pay attention to the world around you, right now, right here. When you're walking, driving, or sitting, keep your eyes open and observe things.

I think your entire clinging grip on the belief that "no icons" is realistic is based on a false understanding of distances and human sight. I have a stretch of road I drive along to and from work daily. There's a hill at each end of this stretch and a long dip in between, meaning you can look up and see the road for at least 2-3 miles (if not 5 or more) and clearly pick out lanes, trees on the side of the road, see how much traffic (cars, trucks, etc) are on the road.

I see aircraft small and large flying over downtown here where I work. There are certain minimum altitude regulations here so I know they're at least a certain distance away, but yet you can still make out plenty of details. You can see the livery colors of airlines at least 10000 ft AGL clear as day. You can make out individual details on helicopters and cessna-type planes. I may not be able to ID the plane if I don't know the names, but if I look at it I can describe clear as day "low wing, twin engine, engines forward to the tip of the nose, long fuselage, round, high flying tail, etc"

I don't think you really understand the distances you see every day nor the details you are observing, and so you cling to this no-icons ideal. You're able to see quite a long distance and pick out many details.


So I again encourage you to look at the world around you and stop and actually think about what you're observing more. You may come to realize just how wrong you've been.

Offline Vinkman

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Re: no icon for me,none for you
« Reply #85 on: June 28, 2011, 02:03:13 PM »
I'm going to give you some advice a 3D animation instructor once gave me.

Pay attention to the world around you, right now, right here. When you're walking, driving, or sitting, keep your eyes open and observe things.

I think your entire clinging grip on the belief that "no icons" is realistic is based on a false understanding of distances and human sight. I have a stretch of road I drive along to and from work daily. There's a hill at each end of this stretch and a long dip in between, meaning you can look up and see the road for at least 2-3 miles (if not 5 or more) and clearly pick out lanes, trees on the side of the road, see how much traffic (cars, trucks, etc) are on the road.

I see aircraft small and large flying over downtown here where I work. There are certain minimum altitude regulations here so I know they're at least a certain distance away, but yet you can still make out plenty of details. You can see the livery colors of airlines at least 10000 ft AGL clear as day. You can make out individual details on helicopters and cessna-type planes. I may not be able to ID the plane if I don't know the names, but if I look at it I can describe clear as day "low wing, twin engine, engines forward to the tip of the nose, long fuselage, round, high flying tail, etc"

I don't think you really understand the distances you see every day nor the details you are observing, and so you cling to this no-icons ideal. You're able to see quite a long distance and pick out many details.


So I again encourage you to look at the world around you and stop and actually think about what you're observing more. You may come to realize just how wrong you've been.

The real world does not have:
Camoflaged sesnas and 747s

The AH 3D world also doesn't have:
The full spectrum of colors
Haze
Dirty windscreens
Mist
Shadows from Clouds
A vibrating shaking platform to see from


Technically the pixel resolution in the AH does not match the real world. True.
Arguing the technical difference between Real and AH to justify Icons is not very relevant. Real life visuals as you have described are more relevant but with the caviots listed above. However, Icons vastly over compansate for the lack of visual clarity in AH vs the real world.  The strategies used in the real war made very good use of the invisibility of camo painted aircraft. There is no ability to make use of paint scemes to hide in the canapoy of the terrain in AH.

Folks don't like getting snuck up on, as evidence by the constant [Hey why can't I get a darn Check six!!!] on range channel. Icons minimize sneak attacks. 
It's not more realistic to not have sneek attacks, it's a gameplay decision.

Folks that like no icons, think the game offers more strategy options while playing.  Detractors say it's so folks can do more sneak attack picking etc...   
Both are correct.  :salute
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Offline gyrene81

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Re: no icon for me,none for you
« Reply #86 on: June 28, 2011, 02:21:24 PM »
I'm going to give you some advice a 3D animation instructor once gave me.

Pay attention to the world around you, right now, right here. When you're walking, driving, or sitting, keep your eyes open and observe things.

I think your entire clinging grip on the belief that "no icons" is realistic is based on a false understanding of distances and human sight. I have a stretch of road I drive along to and from work daily. There's a hill at each end of this stretch and a long dip in between, meaning you can look up and see the road for at least 2-3 miles (if not 5 or more) and clearly pick out lanes, trees on the side of the road, see how much traffic (cars, trucks, etc) are on the road.

I see aircraft small and large flying over downtown here where I work. There are certain minimum altitude regulations here so I know they're at least a certain distance away, but yet you can still make out plenty of details. You can see the livery colors of airlines at least 10000 ft AGL clear as day. You can make out individual details on helicopters and cessna-type planes. I may not be able to ID the plane if I don't know the names, but if I look at it I can describe clear as day "low wing, twin engine, engines forward to the tip of the nose, long fuselage, round, high flying tail, etc"

I don't think you really understand the distances you see every day nor the details you are observing, and so you cling to this no-icons ideal. You're able to see quite a long distance and pick out many details.


So I again encourage you to look at the world around you and stop and actually think about what you're observing more. You may come to realize just how wrong you've been.
you really are full of yourself aren't you? you sit there and attempt to tell me i'm not aware of the distances i see on a daily basis yet you have no clue what the actual distance is between 2 hill tops you travel on a daily basis. unlike a person who spends a lot of time working with distances and memorizing the visual perspectives, i know the average person cannot correctly determine the difference between 100 and 200 yards visually, let alone a mile. and just judging from that tale of the road you travel, you're an average person.

being able to see the colors on a 128+ foot passenger airline from 2 miles is no great feat on a clear day considering the bright colors are painted against a white background. try correctly identifying 2 similarly shaped 48 foot aircraft painted in flat drab colors, flying directly at you or at slight oblique angles toward you, from 2 miles, better yet do it from 18,000 feet away.

you need to get something straight in your skull, before you attempt to use your false sense of superiority again, i've done the work repeatedly at more than one airport and used multiple means to determine distances including range finders. i am fully aware that no icons is not realistic compared to life due to the way objects are rendered in aces high and the scaled down world we see on our computer monitors, but it is by far more realistic than a giant neon sign that starts glowing from 18,000+ feet away.
jarhed  
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Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett

Offline ink

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Re: no icon for me,none for you
« Reply #87 on: June 28, 2011, 03:47:13 PM »
for one I never even remotely said we should get rid of icons, just the opposite the MA's need the icons.  I have flown without icons as a matter of fact the time I flew without icons was a night off of FSO and we did a no icon fight, I had the most kills of the night...on ether side.(I was flying under the name BUDO if you wanna check up on me) so I have no problem without icons, but for the MA they are needed to insure a even playing field for EVERYONE.

to truly think icons make up for the lack of the monitor being unable to render what the human eye can see is absurd. it goes far beyond that.

during the war very few actual "dogfights" happened, to argue this point is well... I don't want to insult anyone but they need to do some damn reading and stop watching "dogfights" on "history" channel.


question-where would they list an event that took place on a off FSO night? I was just looking at the Special events page and can not find the night I was referring to.... and have no clue as to where it would be? :headscratch:

Offline gyrene81

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Re: no icon for me,none for you
« Reply #88 on: June 28, 2011, 03:58:51 PM »
that was a good night for you ink...i don't think official log files were kept on it though. check with daddog and see.
jarhed  
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett

Offline ink

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Re: no icon for me,none for you
« Reply #89 on: June 28, 2011, 05:24:08 PM »
that was a good night for you ink...i don't think official log files were kept on it though. check with daddog and see.

ya it was a rare one that's for sure, I am positive they kept the logs I checked them out back then that's how I know I had the most kills, it was a couple years ago, I don't remember what it was called or where I saw the logs :headscratch: