Author Topic: Mustang on the Endangered List (Cap)  (Read 21586 times)

Offline Shuffler

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Re: Mustang on the Endangered List (Cap)
« Reply #135 on: June 22, 2011, 08:39:43 AM »
He doesn't.

Well if I understand his post.. he does.
Last year the V6 camaro was the equal of the Mustang GT V8. This year mustang was updated.
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Offline CAP1

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Re: Mustang on the Endangered List (Cap)
« Reply #136 on: June 22, 2011, 10:34:44 AM »
and next year the camaro will be updated...and still slower.  :devil

 in the meantime, here's a pair of street cars. good thing the camaro has that high tech irs, eh?  :devil
http://blog.americanmuscle.com/watch-our-2012-boss-302-mustang-vs-a-camaro-ss/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=fbpost6212011camboss

before ya try saying it's biased........that is exactly what is happening on the track, and thus i would imagine at stop light challenges. over 2 seconds faster. the plain old gt would've torn it up too.  :neener:
« Last Edit: June 22, 2011, 10:37:05 AM by CAP1 »
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Offline Shuffler

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Re: Mustang on the Endangered List (Cap)
« Reply #137 on: June 22, 2011, 10:38:11 AM »
and next year the camaro will be updated...and still slower.  :devil

 in the meantime, here's a pair of street cars. good thing the camaro has that high tech irs, eh?  :devil
http://blog.americanmuscle.com/watch-our-2012-boss-302-mustang-vs-a-camaro-ss/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=fbpost6212011camboss

before ya try saying it's biased........that is exactly what is happening on the track, and thus i would imagine at stop light challenges. over 2 seconds faster. the plain old gt would've torn it up too.  :neener:

.... and the fun continues :D
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Offline CAP1

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Re: Mustang on the Endangered List (Cap)
« Reply #138 on: June 22, 2011, 11:03:38 AM »
of course.  :aok

 you see how bad that dood got his arse handed to him though?

 i've beentalking to friends........might get a group of 20 or so of us and rent that track in the video, for a sunday of fun. so far, there's 2 mustangs, a camaro, a bmw, and an audi committed...and my fairmont, which is a mustang in disguise. hopefully no one wants to bring any rice burners....but if they do, it'll still be fun.
 and for some reason that just reminded me....gotta call my old boss.....i'm sure he'll want to bring his vette.......
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Offline Shuffler

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Re: Mustang on the Endangered List (Cap)
« Reply #139 on: June 22, 2011, 11:24:07 AM »
of course.  :aok

 you see how bad that dood got his arse handed to him though?

 i've beentalking to friends........might get a group of 20 or so of us and rent that track in the video, for a sunday of fun. so far, there's 2 mustangs, a camaro, a bmw, and an audi committed...and my fairmont, which is a mustang in disguise. hopefully no one wants to bring any rice burners....but if they do, it'll still be fun.
 and for some reason that just reminded me....gotta call my old boss.....i'm sure he'll want to bring his vette.......

After this post I went back and watched the video. lol They take a 2012 and run it against a 2010. They even state the Boss 302 is purpose built.
In the spring they can test it against the ZL1. It will be purpose built too.


Even the 40 year annivesary camaro would have been a better comparison. One thing the camaro will still have in 2012 is weight.
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Offline CAP1

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Re: Mustang on the Endangered List (Cap)
« Reply #140 on: June 22, 2011, 11:41:55 AM »
After this post I went back and watched the video. lol They take a 2012 and run it against a 2010. They even state the Boss 302 is purpose built.
In the spring they can test it against the ZL1. It will be purpose built too.


Even the 40 year annivesary camaro would have been a better comparison. One thing the camaro will still have in 2012 is weight.

 i knew ya were gonna go there. you missed the point. the plain old gt would've taken that camaro by about a second. and they're not gonna change the zl1 by enough to make up 2 full seconds i would think.
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Offline icepac

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Re: Mustang on the Endangered List (Cap)
« Reply #141 on: June 22, 2011, 12:58:47 PM »
Year: Mustang/Camaro
64:*121,583/NA
65: 559,451/NA
66: 607,568/NA
67: 474,121/*220,906
68: 317,404/ 235,147
68: 299,824/ 243,065
69: 299,824/ 243,065
70: 190,727/ 124,901
71:*149,678/*114,630
72: 125,093/ 114,630 (not a typo!)
73: 134,867/ 96,751
74:*385,993/ 151,008
75: 188,575/ 145,770
76: 187,567/ 182,959
77: 153,173/ 218,858
78: 192,410/ 272,631
79:*369,936/ 282,571
80: 271,322/ 152,005
81: 181,552/ 126,139
82: 130,418/*189,747
83: 120,873/ 154,318
84: 135,678/ 261,591
85: 156,514/ 180,018
86: 224,410/ 192,219
87: 159,145/ 137,760
88: 211,225/ 96,275
89: 209,769/ 110,850
90: 128,189/ 35,048
91: 98,737/ 101,316
92: 79,280/ 70,712
93: 114,228/ *39,755
94:*123,198/ 119,934
95: 185,986/ 122,844
96: 126,483/ 66,827
97: 100,254/ 95,812
98: 170,642/ 77,198
99: 126,067/ 42,098
00: 218,525/ 45,417
01: 155,162/ 29,009

you may be interested to note that there are only 7 years that the camaro outsold the mustang.  :aok

How about you run those figures including firebird into the camaro figures (all years), include the cougar with mustang figures from 1967-1973, and the capri figures from 1979 to 1986 with the mustang figures?

It's possible that this would propel the mustang/cougar/capri even further in sales figures over the camaro/firebird but not sure.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2011, 02:00:27 PM by icepac »

Offline Tyrannis

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Re: Mustang on the Endangered List (Cap)
« Reply #142 on: June 22, 2011, 01:07:58 PM »
Year: Mustang/Camaro
64:*121,583/NA
65: 559,451/NA
66: 607,568/NA
67: 474,121/*220,906
68: 317,404/ 235,147
68: 299,824/ 243,065
69: 299,824/ 243,065
70: 190,727/ 124,901
71:*149,678/*114,630
72: 125,093/ 114,630 (not a typo!)
73: 134,867/ 96,751
74:*385,993/ 151,008
75: 188,575/ 145,770
76: 187,567/ 182,959
77: 153,173/ 218,858
78: 192,410/ 272,631
79:*369,936/ 282,571
80: 271,322/ 152,005
81: 181,552/ 126,139
82: 130,418/*189,747
83: 120,873/ 154,318
84: 135,678/ 261,591
85: 156,514/ 180,018
86: 224,410/ 192,219
87: 159,145/ 137,760
88: 211,225/ 96,275
89: 209,769/ 110,850
90: 128,189/ 35,048
91: 98,737/ 101,316
92: 79,280/ 70,712
93: 114,228/ *39,755
94:*123,198/ 119,934
95: 185,986/ 122,844
96: 126,483/ 66,827
97: 100,254/ 95,812
98: 170,642/ 77,198
99: 126,067/ 42,098
00: 218,525/ 45,417
01: 155,162/ 29,009

you may be interested to note that there are only 7 years that the camaro outsold the mustang.  :aok
most sold =/= the better car.







i've never seen a single report that has the challenger doing much more than giving the 6 cylinder stangs and camaros a run......v8's.....ferget it.
2011 challenger has the highest top speed out of all 3 at a little over 175mph due to its speed not being electronically limited

the limited edition Viper powered srt-10 challenger's top speed is in the 190s.

and the hennesey 900hp supercharged challenger is in that range as well.

its not the quicket 0-60, but it is the fastest.

Offline CAP1

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Re: Mustang on the Endangered List (Cap)
« Reply #143 on: June 22, 2011, 01:39:28 PM »
How about you run those figures including firebird into the camaro figures (all years), include the cougar with mustang figures from 1967-1973, and the capri figures from 1979 to 1986 with the mustang figures?

funny you mention capri.

 when we were running out camaro down at atco, we were consistant low 10's. when we tuned her right, dhe'd go 9.9's easily.

 there was a guy with a 79 capri, 460, c-6 tranny. same basic suspension setup as us. at that time, the camaro was running a 454 bored to 461(i think that was the displacement), with a turbo400 tranny. both approx. the same weight. i never beat that car to the traps. ever. i did put him on the trailer a couple weekends in a row in the bracket races.....but that's only 'cause i'm better at running my number than he is.

 so......ford 460, chevy 454, bored......everything else pretty much the same.....and he hammered me every single time in heads up racing.
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Offline Shuffler

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Re: Mustang on the Endangered List (Cap)
« Reply #144 on: June 22, 2011, 04:27:36 PM »
i knew ya were gonna go there. you missed the point. the plain old gt would've taken that camaro by about a second. and they're not gonna change the zl1 by enough to make up 2 full seconds i would think.

The plane old GT would have been a better comparison.

They are not changing the ZL... it is all new camaro setup.
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Offline CAP1

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Re: Mustang on the Endangered List (Cap)
« Reply #145 on: June 22, 2011, 04:56:20 PM »
The plane old GT would have been a better comparison.

They are not changing the ZL... it is all new camaro setup.

 so it is much the same as it has been for nearly 50 years.....once again, chevy is attempting to compete with ford.  :airplane:

 you guys need to understand too....i don't hate chevy, nor do i hate the camaros. i've owned and driven chevys, i've raced both fords and chevys. it's fun no matter what i'm sitting behind the wheel of.
 the simple fact, though, is that the mustang is a better car. it was the original, and the original was the best. i(and i'm sure others too) am very thankful for the camaro, as without chevy needling ford like this, they would never have developed the mustang to its current state of greatness.
 
 the mustang is the only pony car that has been in non-stop production since it was first born. there is a reason for that. and it now shares the podium(did i spell that right?) with the corvette, in as much as it is one of only 2 true american performance cars.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2011, 05:16:49 PM by CAP1 »
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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Re: Mustang on the Endangered List (Cap)
« Reply #146 on: June 22, 2011, 06:21:12 PM »
Actually, GM/Chevrolet has consistently beaten Ford. Example, Ford claims the F150 is the number one seller, by a narrow margin, over the Chevy 1500. Add the functionally equivalent GMC 1500, and the numbers are reversed, dramatically. Everyone knows a Chevy and a GMC are the same truck, outside of some trim. Combine the two in sales and see where Ford ranks.

Further, the small block Chevy remained in constant production from 1955 until 1997 in cars. That's 42 years. Nothing Ford built approaches that. The various performance small block Chevy engines, the 302, the 327, and the 350, have dominated their Ford competitors for decades. The big block Chevy, was in constant production from 1965 until 2010, that's 45 years. No big block Ford has ever built has even come close in performance or longevity.

You want to talk about the "pony cars"? The 67 350 SS Camaro beat the small block Ford Mustang, that's what drove Ford to put FE engines in Mustangs. Woops, that didn't work so well. The 67, 68, and 69 396/375, Camaro and later, the 69 Camaro 427/425, cleaned the clocks of their 67, 68, 69, and 70 FE 390 and 428 Mustang counterparts. Same for the 402/375 Camaro. Oh, the 302 Z/28 consistently outperformed the small block Mustang in 67, 68, and 69. The 350 LT-1 Z/28 easily beat the Mustang 351C. And don't even bother with those limited "Boss" engines. They stink on the street, and they don't live on the track, the RPM required to make them run competitively keeps them from living consistently. There's no need to even bring up the 69 ZL-1 Camaro, nothing Ford built could touch it.

By the way, in order to make the FE compete, to some degree, with the big block Chevy, NHRA had to allow the FE racers to grind their cranks down and put big block Chevy rods in them. Boy, I bet that was a tough pill to swallow.

You surely do not want to compare the performance of the LT-1 F body, never mind the LS series F body, to the Mustangs of that era. No Mustang of that era even competes, despite the LT series and LS series Chevy engines having been penalized multiple times for being too fast, in an attempt to reign them in.

Lest we forget, the nasty little 66 Chevy II L-79 327/350HP was killing everything Ford had, and in fact the national championship that year came down to Bill Jenkins' 66 Chevy II in A/S and Jere Stahl's 66 Hemi Belvedere, settled by Jenkins' redlight start at the World Finals. Nary a Ford even in the running. And a 327 Chevy going head to head with a 426 Hemi. Go figure.

Now, yes, the Mustang remained "in production", since Ford decided to take what amounted to a Pinto, and do a "skin job". So, for several years, Ford had a "Mustang". Chevrolet, rather than do something of that nature to the Camaro line, hibernated it, since the smog cars of the seventies, while better than the Mustangs of that era, were disappointing at best.

The best years of the Mustang, compared to the Camaro, were the Fox body years. There Ford had a winner. They beat the Camaro handily in cost and ease of modification. Somehow they remain a non factor in Stock and Super Stock, with only a couple of them really fast. And you really don't want to talk road course, either, the Guldstrand prepped Camaros with Traco blueprinted engines ate the prepared mustangs for lunch. But on the street, the Fox body Mustang was a real player in the youth market, it was light, cheap, relatively simple, and the aftermarket loved them.

I'm not a fan of the new Camaro, it's too big and too heavy. Chevy used the design they did because they didn't want to pay a kid who drew a better car. And once again, the car is too expensive. However, there's nothing any of the Ford engines can do to compete without a blower. The modular Ford is not even in the ballpark with the LS series that is now 14 years old, and still uses a cam in the block and rocker arms. You certainly don't want to start comparing what the aftermarket parts on the normally aspirated LS will do with the aftermarket normally aspirated modular series.

Sorry, but the idea of Chevy always trying to play catch up to Ford is patently false. Don't even think about NASCAR, Chevy still has Ford nailed in NASCAR for wins, and winning percentage. Despite NASCAR allowing a Thunderbird coupe in to run in a sedan class, and allowing Ford to continue to use a canted valve engine they had not sold in the U.S. in years, while holding Chevy to a mid sized sedan with an inline valve wedge head engine that was still in production.

Chevrolet still pretty much dominates Stock and Super Stock, with only the "ringers", cars that had to have the rules rewritten in order to compete, being faster. Chevrolet is not now, nor have they ever, had a car that was not a production car, certified for sale to the general public, and meeting all safety and emissions standards, accepted by NHRA for Stock or Super Stock. Ford and Chrysler have been bringing "ringers" for decades. Cars that they had to send out as incomplete for outside assembly. Like the Thunderbolt, built for Ford by Dearborn Steel Tubing, or the Boss 429, built by Kar Kraft or some other outside vendor. No, the Z-11 63 Impala was a factory car, as were all of the L-72 427/425 cars, from the Camaro, to the Chevelle, the Corvette, and even the Impala. Even the ZL-1 Camaro was built right on the assembly line. As was the 67 L-88 Corvette that the Hemi boys in NHRA cried loud enough to get removed from the guide over a techinicality (when they were racing lightweight farmed out 'Cudas and Darts). Nope, not a farmed out ringer in the stable, all production street cars with all safety and emissions equipment. You sure can't say that about ANY 2008 and up Mustang in Stock or Super Stock.

No, Chevy has consistently beaten Ford in various arenas for about 55 years, ever since the 55 Chevy and the first 265 small block V-8 rolled off the line. Parts for that old antique still outsell anything Ford ever produced.

Funny, Ford refused to sign with NHRA, and refused to return to Stock and Super Stock, until NHRA agreed to rewrite the rules and allow the aftermarket built crate motor Mustangs compete in regular Stock classes. And to this day, Ford refuses to issue specs to allow their real production car to race in Stock against other production cars. And you still think Chevy is trying to catch Ford and keep up? Ford won't even race their Mustang you can buy and drive on the street.
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Offline CAP1

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Re: Mustang on the Endangered List (Cap)
« Reply #147 on: June 22, 2011, 07:24:29 PM »
i just got home.....forgot milk, so now running back out....i'll pop a complete answer when i come back.

 on one note....the fe mustangs weren't for the smallblock chevys,,,,they were fir tge 396 camaros,,,,,unless that's a small block.........and whenever ford wanted to make the stang faster, they easily did......evidence the original boss302, which took the trans am championship back from the camaro. search the threads...i posted the year by year winnings of ford vs chevy in those races.....it's closer than you think.

 oh....nascar....why did they outlaw the 427 SOHC? it couldn't have been 'cause it'd have eaten the chevys for lunch, could it have been? who whined louder? the chevy guys, or the chrysler guys?

 what you make out to be only ford getting special treatment due to "not signing" or their teams whining, is in fact again....common among all teams.

 i'll get other points when i get back......
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Offline Hajo

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Re: Mustang on the Endangered List (Cap)
« Reply #148 on: June 22, 2011, 07:25:54 PM »
I'll stay with my MOPARS.....been doing so since 1968.
  All 3 pony cars have their attributes......I'm just glad muscle is back.  Stay tuned....the govt. may change that plan again.

I also remember Chevy and Ford whining about the Hemis in NASCAR.  So fingers can be pointed all day long with no clear winner
acknowledged.  It is a fun debate though.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2011, 07:28:50 PM by Hajo »
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Offline CAP1

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Re: Mustang on the Endangered List (Cap)
« Reply #149 on: June 22, 2011, 07:28:08 PM »
I'll stay with my MOPARS.....been doing so since 1968.
  All 3 pony cars have their attributes......I'm just glad muscle is back.  Stay tuned....the govt. may change that plan again.

 remember i'm a ford nut.

 that being said....the challenger is the best looking of the retro cars.
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