How to regain lost E? (F4U)

[titanic3]

Hey all, I started flying the Corsairs and fell in love with F4U-1D. I've gotten down aiming, landing, take offs and all that. But I have difficulties regaining energy after making a dive on an enemy. I sometimes have to cut throttle to prevent myself from locking up and augering, but that means I usually end up 1000ft under my original altitude from when I began the dive.

I used to fly the 109s a couple of years back a lot, and never had to deal with E problems because of their amazing engines. But it seems to me that the F4U doesn't accelerate very well. Any help or tips on being a better Corsair pilot?

[Krusty]

If you're at the low point of a dive, you don't regain E. You have tons of it. You bring your nose back up. Keep the engine full and climb, zoom, or run at a very shallow climb until you are clear. Minimize the Gs you pull, they will bleed your speed off. You want to be easy on the controls to get back as much alt as possible when pulling out of a dive.

If you're screwing up the attack, you need to adjust what you're doing. Come in at a different angle. Descend FIRST, then set up the attack. Don't push an attack from a bad position, especially if you're ABOVE the other guy (you said diving, so we'll assume that). Take the time to set it up right and you won't overshoot.


Also, don't forget to chop throttle if you have a fast dive, stomp rudder, drop your gear (in F4us they are air brakes), or just position it so that you blast the guy out of the sky in 1 pass so you have all the time in the world to regain your alt.

[MK-84]

F4u will gain the most E in a vertical zoom.  It has excellent E retention.  Unfortunately it climbs poorly.   It also has possibly the most effective flaps in the game (which will blow your E in return)  The best way (for me) to fly is to stay fast in the vertical, and only deploy flaps at the top of a loop, or if you are 100% certain you can out turn your opponent.  You will be surprised at what you can out turn, even in a stall-fight.  There are plenty of much better F4u pilots than me, but I would ask FTDEEP for some advice if you see him flying along.

[titanic3]

Ah, so instead of diving straight down, I should get lower than my target at fullspeed?

But doesn't that expose me to other planes for a longer time? Since I'm now lower than they are?

Thanks for the help, I'll try it out at the next opportunity.

[PuppetZ]

Learn to use the flaps. They must go out long enough to haul the nose in the turn, yet short enough they dont take off big chunks of your E. Just managing the flaps is gonna keep you busy in there. You never want to be lower than the bad guys. Especially in a hog. If you lock it up in a dive, maybe you need to choose your target more carefully. Stay high and fast, and instead of going down to him, let him come up to you, if you loose E, it's gone until the end of the fight. A 109 can get some back because of the great climb rate. A hog not so much. Then you must also choose your targets very carefully. Trying to get a bunch of spits or zeke by yourself is suicide. You might get one and the other will swarm you. You cannot outurn most of the plane set. You can out run some, and you wont out climb or out accelerate anything but a dr1. All the climbing have to be done by the time you get to the target zone.

Against most of the british planes it's at a severe disadvantage in turn rate, as it is against japanese. Be VERY careful around them. If they are higher, you're gonna have a real hard time(and most probably end up dead...). Against most of the american planeset, you have a good chance if you play your cards well. They are : good roll rate at every speed and especially low speed roll rate, good flaps, good instantaneous turn rate (dont hesitate to drop a notch of flaps or two if you need it and get them back in ASAP), pretty good low speed handling (for when thing get dirty), and lastly, it can take a beating. Learn the rolling scissor, how to initiate it. It's the best move in the hog's arsenal.

Another thing to keep in mind: the hog got a pretty high wing loading, easy to snap stall if you too harsh with the controls. It can leave you in nasty stall situation if your not careful.

All things I wrote as they come to mind. Have left many out cause it's sometimes too hard to put in words. It'll come with stick time. It did for me at least....

You can survive any fight. Your biggest threat up there is yourself. Many fight you cant win. Just gotta learn to recognize it.

[Stoney]

I sometimes have to cut throttle to prevent myself from locking up and augering, but that means I usually end up 1000ft under my original altitude from when I began the dive.

Use manual trim.  Combat trim will help you auger because as you increase speed, it will add nose-down trim, which exacerbates the problem...

[JUGgler]

Corsairs run out of energy? 



JUGgler

[bozon]

Ah, so instead of diving straight down, I should get lower than my target at fullspeed?

But doesn't that expose me to other planes for a longer time? Since I'm now lower than they are?

You are confusing energy with speed (just the kinetic energy part).

You have two kind of energy: kinetic and potential, but lets call them speed and alt.
You also have a single energy source - engine power
and two kinds of energy sinks: parasitic drag that simply scales with your speed and induced drag which depends on your maneuvering.

Speed bleeds enrgy to the parasitic drag. At low speeds this bleed is weak enough to be compensated by the engine power. You therefore gain energy over time. If you dive and pick up speed, the energy bleed increase significantly (like the square of the speed) and you are not gaining net energy. Therefore if you need mor eenergy you have to be slow.

Alt is banked energy - its is stored and does not bleed. This is why the most efficient way to build energy is to climb - what E you gain, you immediately store in alt so it does not bleed.

When you zoom climb you do not loose energy - you convert the speed into alt. Diving is the was to cash back the stored energy into something you can use, but remember that if your speed is high you are not gaining new energy due to the drag bleed. On the other hand you can actually use this energy to do something. Being low than you opponent is not a disadvantageous position! being lower ENERGY than you opponent is - this means that if you are lower but faster, such that your total energy is higher than his you have the upper hand! You can zoom up to him to his alt and still be as fast or faster than he is. He can dive down to you, but will not catch you because if he cashes his alt for speed it is still not enough to match you.

Speed means that ability to maneuver and the ability to position. So you cash alt for speed and then cash speed into maneuvering. There is absolutely no advantage in being higher when considering maneuvering. It is even disadvantageous. If both planes have the same total E, the higher one is slower (more stationary target that cannot move out of the way), cannot maneuver as well (G limited), and has gravity against him in maneuvers - yes, against!. The plane that attacks uphill (with lots of speed!) can pull more G, can change his actual position in the sky (because he is moving faster)  and the next pull to point at the other guy will have the gravity vector inside his turn, meaning that gravity makes him turn faster.

The rules of thumb are:
* Energy is both speed and alt.
* Higher is just a vertical position, not an advantage.
* You want to go up to store and build more energy in times when you do not need to maneuver a lot.
* The alt is there just as an energy bank, waiting for you to cash it into speed and then into maneuvering at the right moment.
* If you die slow and high you are doing it wrong. It is like saving all your life to die a rich man - what is the point in that?

[PuppetZ]

A hog will loose speed very fast fighting uphill. Never a good idea. In that situation, better stay fast and try to let the bad guy come down than go up. At 200 it start to get sluggish and you have to drop flaps for any significant maneuver, exacerbating the Speed bleed off. If both you and the enemy are slow you can always make it work. If you try to get gun solution while going up, chance is you'll be left flapping helplessly. Certain plane will do well in those situation. It's not really the hog's game.

[morfiend]

You are confusing energy with speed (just the kinetic energy part).

You have two kind of energy: kinetic and potential, but lets call them speed and alt.
You also have a single energy source - engine power
and two kinds of energy sinks: parasitic drag that simply scales with your speed and induced drag which depends on your maneuvering.

Speed bleeds energy to the parasitic drag. At low speeds this bleed is weak enough to be compensated by the engine power. You therefore gain energy over time. If you dive and pick up speed, the energy bleed increase significantly (like the square of the speed) and you are not gaining net energy. Therefore if you need mor eenergy you have to be slow.

Alt is banked energy - its is stored and does not bleed. This is why the most efficient way to build energy is to climb - what E you gain, you immediately store in alt so it does not bleed.

When you zoom climb you do not loose energy - you convert the speed into alt. Diving is the was to cash back the stored energy into something you can use, but remember that if your speed is high you are not gaining new energy due to the drag bleed. On the other hand you can actually use this energy to do something. Being low than you opponent is not a disadvantageous position! being lower ENERGY than you opponent is - this means that if you are lower but faster, such that your total energy is higher than his you have the upper hand! You can zoom up to him to his alt and still be as fast or faster than he is. He can dive down to you, but will not catch you because if he cashes his alt for speed it is still not enough to match you.

Speed means that ability to maneuver and the ability to position. So you cash alt for speed and then cash speed into maneuvering. There is absolutely no advantage in being higher when considering maneuvering. It is even disadvantageous. If both planes have the same total E, the higher one is slower (more stationary target that cannot move out of the way), cannot maneuver as well (G limited), and has gravity against him in maneuvers - yes, against!. The plane that attacks uphill (with lots of speed!) can pull more G, can change his actual position in the sky (because he is moving faster)  and the next pull to point at the other guy will have the gravity vector inside his turn, meaning that gravity makes him turn faster.

The rules of thumb are:
* Energy is both speed and alt.
* Higher is just a vertical position, not an advantage.
* You want to go up to store and build more energy in times when you do not need to maneuver a lot.
* The alt is there just as an energy bank, waiting for you to cash it into speed and then into maneuvering at the right moment.
* If you die slow and high you are doing it wrong. It is like saving all your life to die a rich man - what is the point in that?

  QFT!

   This is some great imformation,too many players confuse what "E" means and a Bozon says it's the total of speed and alt,with the weight of the plane being a factor as well. E fighting is learning how to trade the potential energy for kinetic energy and viseversa.

  One thing I dont think was mentioned is to watch the G meter and try to unload your airframe as you climb,this can be done in a dive also.Unloading the airframe helps to reduce some drag and your potential weight. Say your plane weighs 5 tons at 2 G's it weighs 10 tons but has the same amount of thrust,so if you can reduce the G load to say .5 of a G your plane will weigh 2.5 tons with the same amount of thrust.Which do you think will climb higher?

   Now the weight doesnt really change but the G load makes it seems so or atleast thats the physics behind it....  I'm sure there's much more intelligent players that could explain this in a more technical way and I'd be happy if they'd chime in.


  hope this helps!





   

[titanic3]

Thanks a lot guys. Manage to land quite a few kills today. 

Now all I have to work on is learning to stall fight and trying to initiate a rolling scissor.

[Big Rat]

Rule #1 when fighting with a Hog, and one of the first things I teach.  Gain the high ground, and don't give it up easily.  Youre two biggest weaknesses are climb and acceleration.  Therefore gaining position early in a fight while you have plenty of E to burn is critical.  I teach this early and harp on it continually, just ask my students .  Best Corsair advice I can give you besides hooking up with a trainer, is to hang around the TA in the evenings, around 9 central time.  Many talented hog stick around in the evening.

 
BigRat

[Saxman]

Don't be afraid to egress out to the edge of the fight (preferably in the direction of friendly territory) to regain altitude as needed. Arguably, you want to follow an outside-in, top-to-bottom approach to a large furball, especially if you're operating alone. Prowl the outer margin of a fight for targets first, particularly newcomers or other aircraft who are closer to your altitude and could give you some trouble if you dive in to the heart of the furball, and work your way in. Be careful about going for a lower target when higher ones are around unless you've got a good run on the target or no other choice. Just be ready to withdraw and reposition if you start finding yourself too low. Trying to regain altitude in the middle of the furball will get you into trouble quick.

[dstrip2]

The Hog is all about E management. it will do a lot of stuff really well in the right hands and with the correct amount of energy. in the MA, i usually try to call ahead and figure out what alt the fight is at and show up about 2-3k higher but i dont bother stuff over 15k usually.

you have 5 notches of flaps if my memory serves correctly. the first two notches deploy at relatively high speeds, i usually keep the elevator fairly smooth and constant in energy conserving turns and drop a notch for a second if i need to. DO NOT CONTINUOUSLY FLY WITH THE FLAPS OUT! bad bad bad idea, as mentioned before that extra drag just blows your E. keep them in as much as possible, only kick enough out to get the plane to do what you want it to. dont be afraid to use them though when you need to.

a hog will out-turn a spit16, an la7, and other stuff if you know what you're doing. sustained high-g turns is not ever a great idea in a hog. look up the "lag pursuit" turn and practice using the vertical and your awesome roll rate. snap rolls can be dangerous, especially down low, but i find them fairly controllable. you have lots and lots of options and tricks both offensive and defensive in a hog, IF and only if you have the E to pull them off. if you dont, youll spin out (i.e. you're hanging on your prop, the left wing dips, the plane does some funny things and settles into a left-handed spiral where the wings are stalled and the engine torque is whirling the whole damn thing around to the left. nose down, cut throttle, blend opposite -right- rudder & -right- aileron to recover. BE GENTLE but still firm.

-hog has one of the most effective rudders in the game, and incidentally many players have trouble shooting a yawing (sideslip) airplane. i know guys that set up off to the side of some ho-tard and swing the 50's into them with just the rudder. its also good for purposely stalling a wing in a desperate situation and then catching the stall with the rudder.

- you can throw SOOOO much drag into the equation with this plane between the huge rudder, sturdy gear, and super-flaps (lol). when done right, a hog can force some great over-shoots

-be mindful of the profile you present to the bad guy. the hog is a big target, and its doesnt take but 3 or 4 20mm rounds to break a wing usually.

-has some of the strongest gear in the game, in RL there was a 'dive bombing' setting that held them halfway out... the 1D can do some good JABO work. i think they rip off at 450?

-the hog is a great diver. WEP dive at about a 30-40 degree angle will let you pick up oodles of speed. dont be afraid to drop 3k for some speed to get out from under that spit that is 5k above you. if someone follows you down, chances are you can out-roll them while still in the dive. just get their wings at a 90 degree angle to yours, and ease back on the stick just a little. you'd be surprised how much that can throw some guys off.

-the 'zoom climb' in the hog is great. after a dive and with plenty of speed, start a shallow climb and watch those spits and zekes nose up to follow you and slowly drift back. save some E for a loop at the top, flaps out at the top of the loop.. let those 50's eat up whatever tried to follow you

-hog excells at BnZ (but you knew that) and can make some turns if it has to

-situational awareness is key in a hog. you have to keep track of the relative energy states of everything around you

-set a 'hard deck' when you get to a fight. if i have less than 4k under my wings in a hog, im nervous

-do NOT get slow. slow hog = dead hog most of the time this bird is ALL about E management and awareness, dont be afraid to scoot out of a furball, climb around, and come back 5 minutes later. plenty of gas to do that.

- pilot skill and seat time are the huge determining factors with how 'good' the hog is.

->>> any 190 is easy meat. look at them as target practice. ki84 will give you loads of trouble. 


you said you have landing down, so i take it you've worked the bounce/ground loop issue out (ride the stall into the runway. makes nice flaps-out 3 point landing for pics)


there is only so much i can put into a post and its probably rather fragmented considering my lack of sleep. your best bet is to hit the DA with some friends or the TA at the times posted earlier and bet them they cant impress you  lots of good sticks that have been in hogs since warbirds still tooling around. probably some stuff on youtube for inspiration. request to join anybody you see consistently landing kills in the hog. ask them before sending the request though.

oh, try flying the 1A instead of the D. burn the left wing tank dry, keep about 1/8 or 1/4 in the right. makes a good ballast to compensate (some) for engine torque at low speeds and makes a good little reserve. besides, the 1A has better skins. and if you're gonna die in cartoon land you may as well look good doing it 

  <- don't blue planes look sooooooo sexy? 

<S>
DsTrip2

[coombz]

thanks all for the posts and info trying to learn the corsairs a bit atm and this is really useful

look up the "lag pursuit" turn and practice using the vertical and your awesome roll rate.

would be great to see some film of an f4u demonstrating this