Tanking

[Karnak]

Hey, the M8 had a time when it was dang good.  I took twelve, honestly, twelve Panzer IV Hs out in one sortie in it once.

That was, however, before the introduction of such M8 immune tanks as the T-34/76, Sherman VC Firefly (which I note is mostly absent from the discussion) and so on.  Tiger Is were there, but rare.

Oh yeah, M8 tactics.  One 37mm to the back of the Panzer IV's turret kills the turret and two to rear hull kills the Panzer, on to the next target.  Stop and slow down as little as possible, the armor you have may as well not be there.

[Lusche]

Sherman VC Firefly (which I note is mostly absent from the discussion)

Maybe that's because he's mostly absent from the AH battlefield too

[Butcher]

Hey, the M8 had a time when it was dang good.  I took twelve, honestly, twelve Panzer IV Hs out in one sortie in it once.

That was, however, before the introduction of such M8 immune tanks as the T-34/76, Sherman VC Firefly (which I note is mostly absent from the discussion) and so on.  Tiger Is were there, but rare.

Oh yeah, M8 tactics.  One 37mm to the back of the Panzer IV's turret kills the turret and two to rear hull kills the Panzer, on to the next target.  Stop and slow down as little as possible, the armor you have may as well not be there.

The Sherman Firefly doesn't get used much because of its paper thin armor, below average speed and perk value. However for something that will kill a Tiger at quite a distance and for so little perks, its well worth tinkering with. I rarely have seen anyone attempt to using the FireFly, and most of the time when I do they get killed at distance by Panzers, M4s and T34's.

The M8 had its time, and its still possible for one or two kills against Panzers, however the limited range of the gun makes it a challange to even within 200 yards alone for a kill shot, even then it takes perfect accuracy and hoping the gunner isn't quick enough to react.

This is why I route for the Puma Scout car, with a 50mm L/60 which could do some damage and is fast.

[waystin2]

The Sherman Firefly doesn't get used much because of its paper thin armor, below average speed and perk value. However for something that will kill a Tiger at quite a distance and for so little perks, its well worth tinkering with. I rarely have seen anyone attempt to using the FireFly, and most of the time when I do they get killed at distance by Panzers, M4s and T34's.

The armor is exactly the same as the 75 & 76 model.  The advantages: zoom optics, heavy hitting 17lber, long distance gunnery, blends in with greenery even when viewed with default skin.  Drawbacks are it's slower reload times in relation to the other M4's, and it's slower top speed.  For shoot and scoot she works well, as followup shots are rarely needed on anything else other than the Tigers & Panther. 

[Belial]

The armor is exactly the same as the 75 & 76 model.  The advantages: zoom optics, heavy hitting 17lber, long distance gunnery, blends in with greenery even when viewed with default skin.  Drawbacks are it's slower reload times in relation to the other M4's, and it's slower top speed.  For shoot and scoot she works well, as followup shots are rarely needed on anything else other than the Tigers & Panther. 

On paper the fireflys armor may be the same as the m76 but it dies much easier than the 76 in the game.

[Butcher]

On paper the fireflys armor may be the same as the m76 but it dies much easier than the 76 in the game.

Its been a well known flaw for a while, the M4(75) has the best armor on paper, however the M4(76)'s armor is petty much a fortress and the M4(75) is practically butter while the Firefly sits in a Hanger.

[waystin2]

On paper the fireflys armor may be the same as the m76 but it dies much easier than the 76 in the game.

Its been a well known flaw for a while, the M4(75) has the best armor on paper, however the M4(76)'s armor is petty much a fortress and the M4(75) is practically butter while the Firefly sits in a Hanger.

I have heard this before, but never experienced it myself.  Whether this is a result of the way I tank or my sticking with the Firefly as my favorite, I do not know.  My questions is this: you both have provided subjective proof of your claim, can you provide objective proof in the form of actual data to lend credence to your claims?  Interested in your reply.

 

Way

[Tank-Ace]

M4(75) and the Firefly are dry storage, unlike the M4(76)W. The armor is the same, it just takes less damage to kill one.

Imagine 100mm frontal armor for all three. M4(75) has 200hp, Firefly has 200hp, and the M4(76) has 350 hp. It takes the same force to penetrate the armor, and damage each one, the M4(76) can just take more damage. That is the simplified, dumbed-down version of the explination.

[waystin2]

M4(75) and the Firefly are dry storage, unlike the M4(76)W. The armor is the same, it just takes less damage to kill one.

Imagine 100mm frontal armor for all three. M4(75) has 200hp, Firefly has 200hp, and the M4(76) has 350 hp. It takes the same force to penetrate the armor, and damage each one, the M4(76) can just take more damage. That is the simplified, dumbed-down version of the explination.

If this is the case then it needs to be fixed, but again I have not run ito this myself.  Thank you for dumbing it down, but I was actually hoping for someone to smarten it up.

[Belial]

I have no stats I don't know if it's even possible to get stats.

I just have my countless hours of experience to go by think what you may...and hope your firefly doesn't come across me 

[waystin2]

I have no stats I don't know if it's even possible to get stats.

I just have my countless hours of experience to go by think what you may...and hope your firefly doesn't come across me 

My point is opinion is not enough.  I have countless hours experience as well.  You and I have crossed guns a few times and it was about 50/50 in the engagements, so it's not much to fear. 

[Tank-Ace]

OK, so here is how it seems to work. Can't prove it, but it seems to fall in line with what happens in game:

The shell from each gun has a set damage value and a set armor penetration value at 0yds. Damage and penetration decrease as ranges increase. Damage also decreases with the thickness of armor the shell must penetrate. As long as your shell penetrates your target's armor, you will do some damage to him. Not nessiciarliy a lot, but some.

The tanks also have a damage threshold. One each for the tracks, the engine, the turret and the tank itself. When you excede the damage threshold for an individual part, it 'breaks' and no longer functions. If you keep hitting that part (tracks, and AA vehicles excluded, they had the damage model changed so that you can't hit the turret multiple times and kill the entire vehicle, IIRC) and it will eventually destroy the tank.

The M4 family all has pretty much the same armor. Factoring slope, this armor is ~100mm thick on the glacis plate. The M4(75) and firefly are both modeled with "dry storage" or ammunition stored in regular shell racks or bins. The M4(76) is modeled with "wet storage" or ammunition stored in water-lined bins. This reduced the chance of a detonation of the ammunition in the event the armor is penetrated. This is represented in the game with a higher damage threshold than the M4(75) and the Firefly.

[waystin2]

OK, so here is how it seems to work. Can't prove it, but it seems to fall in line with what happens in game:

The shell from each gun has a set damage value and a set armor penetration value at 0yds. Damage and penetration decrease as ranges increase. Damage also decreases with the thickness of armor the shell must penetrate. As long as your shell penetrates your target's armor, you will do some damage to him. Not nessiciarliy a lot, but some.

The tanks also have a damage threshold. One each for the tracks, the engine, the turret and the tank itself. When you excede the damage threshold for an individual part, it 'breaks' and no longer functions. If you keep hitting that part (tracks, and AA vehicles excluded, they had the damage model changed so that you can't hit the turret multiple times and kill the entire vehicle, IIRC) and it will eventually destroy the tank.

The M4 family all has pretty much the same armor. Factoring slope, this armor is ~100mm thick on the glacis plate. The M4(75) and firefly are both modeled with "dry storage" or ammunition stored in regular shell racks or bins. The M4(76) is modeled with "wet storage" or ammunition stored in water-lined bins. This reduced the chance of a detonation of the ammunition in the event the armor is penetrated. This is represented in the game with a higher damage threshold than the M4(75) and the Firefly.

Thank you Tank, something more than the "countless hours of experience and that's just the way it is".  I think when I get some time I may want to actually run some experiments with the Firefly and find out if there is some truth to all of this.  You interested in helping sometime?  Let me know.

 

Way

[Tank-Ace]

I would love to. You have now idea how thrilled I was when they finally gave us the penetration tables. I had made some tables on my own, but they weren't as accurate as the ones HTC has provided.

[waystin2]

I would love to. You have now idea how thrilled I was when they finally gave us the penetration tables. I had made some tables on my own, but they weren't as accurate as the ones HTC has provided.

Roger that I will be in touch in a few weeks.  Working on methodology for this test.  I want to compare the M475, M476 & Firefly for hit damage from a variety of tanks and a variety of armor hit points(front, side, rear, turret).  Just want to see if there is anything to these rumors.  My hypothesis is that you will find the Firefly is not used as much due to the perk and slower top speed, rather than it's weakness in comparison to the other M4's.  Talk at ya soon!

Way