When Is It Alright to HO?

[tassos]

Lets make a list of situations where HOing is and isn't ok.

[JUGgler]

See Rules #4, #6

[mthrockmor]

Ho'ing is Vegas style odds. Being ho'd just sucks.

Just the other day, around 10k. There is a P-51 in the area tooling around. An A6M3 keeps trying to get at me and a random Bf-109K4 that swoops by me a bit. So roughly a three v one situation, though not being pressed by all three at one time. The P-51 is as timid as a three year old boy. The K4 wants to get aggressive but isn't, the Zero is just too slow and begging for me to turn fight.

My plan is to situate the P-51 out of icon range, kill the K4 then BnZ the Zero. All is well. The P-51 disappears, I fly over the Zero and head towards the K4, which is in a slightly off spot so turns into me. I'm expecting the K4 to overshoot but instead heads right towards me and at the last second goes HO. We both pull triggers, he smokes and I'm in the tower. Freshly killed by a K4 making a HO pass.

Maybe the K4 saw something different then I did but it was Titanic3 in the K4. I was annoyed but no big deal. As much my fault as his though not my intent to go head on. Is that how you saw the fight develop?

Boo

[bj229r]

I don't understand how you "surrender" the fight by HOing when it's 3 v 1 or more. 2 v 1 situations are fairly common and if the single pilot is any decent, he'll put up a real good fight and maybe even score 2 kills. 3 v 1, that's the point where if you don't take your chances, you're going to die. That's not surrendering, IMO, it's putting up the best defense you have.

What are the odds of winning coin flips 3 times ina row?

[titanic3]

If you fire on me first, I fire back. I try not to HO, and I don't fly the K4, not regularly at all.

You said the other day? I haven't flown the K4 at all in the past few days. P38s, Bf110, 109F4, F4Us and a N1K1 for base defense. Mostly 110s.  

[titanic3]

What are the odds of winning coin flips 3 times ina row?

What are the odds of winning all 3 coin flips at the same time?

[Wiley]

What are the odds of winning coin flips 3 times ina row?

Not what it would mean to me.  It's not like the person is sitting there, 'Ok...  It's 3v1.  It is now time to bust out the HO mojo, line up on these guys one at a time and HO them to death.'

In a 3v1 (at least for me) the primary concern is avoiding bullets.  If during one of my evasive maneuvers, I can adjust my trajectory slightly to take a shot at one of the enemy while still remaining as safe as you can be in a 3v1, no matter the angle, I'll do so.  Sometimes this is a HO.

I think that's what is meant.

To the OP, Ink has the right of it, you will be known by your actions.  Do it, or don't do it according to what you feel.  There are people who will cry HO if you shoot at them from anywhere ahead of the 3-9 line.

The one critical thing to remember when it comes to HOs...  If you don't HO someone, you have the moral high ground.  You are a good person.  Be certain to tell all and sundry around you what a swell person you are for not taking the HO shot that was presented to you, and what an evil, skill-less, win the war at any costs person the other person is for HOing and killing you.  Other people love to hear about it, in as much detail as you can provide, and you will gain much respect in the community.

Wiley.

[dedalos]

"actually i was heading for the ack, you got on the way. and that wasnt even a ho as i was from from your left at a 45 angle.

semp"

You remember...
45 degrees off?  How I get guns on you then?

Bah, I can confirm that everything that has "BK" in their name is a HOtard.  We actually spent countless hours in the DA perfecting the art of HOing to make it look as if it was a shot from your 6 o'clock.

[JUGgler]

There is commonality in all the folks who are "good" and have been around a while. It is that the "desperate kill all" mentality has left them, they prefer quality. They still want to win and will do most things to achieve it, but there are many things they will shy away from. They have learned a higher standard and try to maintain and present this standard.

Everyone starts HOing, vulching, ganging, picking and basically tarding the hell out of everything. Then you get bored and move to a new phase of AH gameplay and it usually involves GVs as well as having progressed to "cherrypicking" at the edge of someones base, even now though you have learned a higher standard in that you probably shun vulching. The next progression usually comes with choosing crappier rides cause once again you've become bored. Now this stage is frustrating cause although you are pwning noobs in your p40 you are still getting owned by better players, you still cherry pick and are somewhat ok with HOing unless it happens to you and you are firmly against vulching still. <-- This is where most players reside IMHO at the moment in AH. You are good, but not great and you are still concerned with being shot down by someone notable, "it grates on you". The next progression probably involves DA time and seeking out those better than you cause NOW you feel as though you have a chance and "you actually do" have a chance now, you may win 2-3 out of 10 against the best but they still edge you out. This level of progression usually involves no HOing because you are becoming more technical in your approach to fighting, probably settled into a ride you prefer although you are quite competant in any and you are seeing how "cheap" the HO really is, sometimes though you will up a beast and HO everything in revenge! There is a level of progression that some get to that kind of encompasses all of the above it is the level where you can take or leave most thing in AH but you honestly try to leave out the crap always, sometimes you will be pushed into the sewer but it doesn't phase you cause you already have spent your time wading thru it!


With all that said, If you are beyond level2 and you still have excuses to validate HOing then it is merely cause you have not made it thru AH puberty and are still wet behind the ears!



JUGgler

[crockett]

If you fly by the nick Titanic4 I guess it's ok to Ho..

I tried to fight you the other day, you in in a P38 and I can't remember what I was in either a k4 or jug, but every single pass I was having to avoid your HO attempts and it was a 1v1. You eventually got a "deflection" on me when I wasn't able to completely avoid one of your HO attempts.

If you are going to HO just admit it and move on, no need to try to justify it, with your little list of "when it's ok", because it doesn't appear you even follow that anyway. Hell you probably could of easily beat me with out the HO attempts as I'm still rusty as hell and dying to stupid things like flying into the water & trees. 

I just find it funny you are complaining about HOs you appear to also do it if you are Titanic4 in game.

[Dead Man Flying]

I tried to fight you the other day, you in in a P38 and I can't remember what I was in either a k4 or jug, but every single pass I was having to avoid your HO attempts and it was a 1v1. You eventually got a "deflection" on me when I finally wasn't able to avoid your attempt at the Ho.

No offense, but that sounds like he played that fight perfectly.  If he knew you would avoid his HO at all costs without reciprocating, then it was a low risk/high reward tactic for him.  The fact that it eventually paid off demonstrates its effectiveness.  I know that some will claim that it's not very sporting of him, but if I knew that my opponent was going to capitalize on my unwillingness to HO, the first thing I'd do is at least equalize his risk/reward calculations by returning fire.

[Wiley]

Juggler's post here makes sense for the most part.  The one thing he didn't state that I think bears mentioning is, people can stagnate anywhere along that progression for a legion of reasons.  One of the most common is that ultimately this is a game/hobby, and some don't find it fun to put in the time and effort to become a top shelf player.  Others don't realize what they're missing.  Some just don't have the reflexes/mental acuity/time to progress beyond a certain point.  Some are drunk/other the entire duration of their playtime.

I agree very much with Juggler's statement about where most people in the game are at.  About the only quibble I'd take with that statement is whether getting shot down 'grates on people' is often independent of where they are in the progression.  Some always get mad when they die all the way through, others never get mad when they die.  Most are somewhere in between.

Wiley.

[crockett]

No offense, but that sounds like he played that fight perfectly.  If he knew you would avoid his HO at all costs without reciprocating, then it was a low risk/high reward tactic for him.  The fact that it eventually paid off demonstrates its effectiveness.  I know that some will claim that it's not very sporting of him, but if I knew that my opponent was going to capitalize on my unwillingness to HO, the first thing I'd do is at least equalize his risk/reward calculations by returning fire.

lol the fact it paid off is because I still had too much fuel and am flying like crap from taking 2 years off. Last time I checked it was a game anyway. What is Risk vs Reward when there is also Fun vs Bore..

TBH it doesn't matter anyway, because most people in this game will hoard, cherry pick and pretty much deny any possible 1v1s or decent fights, so HOing is just another way to deny fun fights I guess. I only replied because I found it funny he was complaining about HO's on the forum when using the very same "tactic" in game.

[SAJ73]

It depends on what kind of player you are.

If your skillless, or a win the war at all cost type, your going to HO. Your going to have all of these excellent reasons why you MUST HO.

"Im clearing the air space so the buffs can get in"
"Im flying a 110,tiffy, yada-yada-yada"
"my plane is out classed"
"I'm out numbered"
"I'm defending my base"
"he was in my gunsites"

If on the other hand you play this game to have dogfights....

You won't HO on the first pass
You will avoid any head on pass that you can after that
If you should pass nose to nose you won't fire

To me this game is about out flying the other guy and shooting him down. If all I wanted to do was rack up kills I can play Xbox. I try to NEVER fire on a head to head pass, should I find myself in one (I work very hard NOT to be in that position). Any one HOing me has already conceded the fight to me. They have admitted that they can not out fly me and get the kill shot other than HOin. When I do finally give up and start HOin every loser that comes at me I know its time to take a break. A man can only take so much 

+1 to this. 

[SAJ73]

There is commonality in all the folks who are "good" and have been around a while. It is that the "desperate kill all" mentality has left them, they prefer quality. They still want to win and will do most things to achieve it, but there are many things they will shy away from. They have learned a higher standard and try to maintain and present this standard.

Everyone starts HOing, vulching, ganging, picking and basically tarding the hell out of everything. Then you get bored and move to a new phase of AH gameplay and it usually involves GVs as well as having progressed to "cherrypicking" at the edge of someones base, even now though you have learned a higher standard in that you probably shun vulching. The next progression usually comes with choosing crappier rides cause once again you've become bored. Now this stage is frustrating cause although you are pwning noobs in your p40 you are still getting owned by better players, you still cherry pick and are somewhat ok with HOing unless it happens to you and you are firmly against vulching still. <-- This is where most players reside IMHO at the moment in AH. You are good, but not great and you are still concerned with being shot down by someone notable, "it grates on you". The next progression probably involves DA time and seeking out those better than you cause NOW you feel as though you have a chance and "you actually do" have a chance now, you may win 2-3 out of 10 against the best but they still edge you out. This level of progression usually involves no HOing because you are becoming more technical in your approach to fighting, probably settled into a ride you prefer although you are quite competant in any and you are seeing how "cheap" the HO really is, sometimes though you will up a beast and HO everything in revenge! There is a level of progression that some get to that kind of encompasses all of the above it is the level where you can take or leave most thing in AH but you honestly try to leave out the crap always, sometimes you will be pushed into the sewer but it doesn't phase you cause you already have spent your time wading thru it!


With all that said, If you are beyond level2 and you still have excuses to validate HOing then it is merely cause you have not made it thru AH puberty and are still wet behind the ears!



JUGgler

And this is so well written, I don't know what stage I am at. But I sure know I have been through most of them.. Alot of this sounded very familiar to me.