Author Topic: When Is It Alright to HO?  (Read 8449 times)

Offline skorpion

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Re: When Is It Alright to HO?
« Reply #180 on: September 08, 2011, 05:51:53 PM »
well let's hear it then (well see)  :devil
nooo...:lol

im good. :aok

Offline mtnman

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Re: When Is It Alright to HO?
« Reply #181 on: September 08, 2011, 10:19:49 PM »
...what constitute acceptable standards of behavior.  As I read your post, you believe there aren't any.  That's fine, even though I think it's a little bid sad...

Any?

I wouldn't take it to nearly that extreme, first of all.  We're only talking about two very specific behaviors (Hoing and ganging) sometimes separately, and sometimes in combination.  Personally, I believe there are more behaviors than that at play in AH.  Also, just because my standards may not match yours on these two items, that doesn't mean we don't agree on many other facets...

And while I find both behaviors (even in combination) acceptable, doesn't mean I find them favorable, or desirable.  It simply means I won't condemn them off-hand.

My personal sense of sportsmanship is quite high, and as such I don't allow myself to partake in many of the "normal" behaviors of the MA.  That still doesn't mean I condemn the behavior; merely that I consider it "beneath" me. 

but the fact that the HO and ganging discussions arise every few months - and have done so since way back in the AW days - suggests that there is a very large group of people in this game who have a sense of minimum sportsmanship standards.

No, it doesn't.  It just means that these two topics don't pass away for long before they resurface.  That could be explained by a vocal minority...  How do you arrive at a "quantity" from a rate of recurrence?  One person could bring a topic up once a day for the next year, and it wouldn't mean there was a "large group" involved, just a high rate of recurrence.

And how does a vocal group equate to a level of sportsmanship?  I consider the vocal "non-HO'ers" to be showing a lower level of sportsmanship than the rest of the populace...  Similar (but not quite the same) to the athlete that whines at a refs call.  To your point of these two arguments popping up repeatedly, doing a search on those topics would reveal my arguments as to why (if you were that interested).

I'd also point out that I feel many of the non-HO group are playing along to gain favor of those they look up to, or due to peer pressure, or simply because it's easier to follow than to lead, etc...  Do they know "why", or do they follow because they're easily swayed?

And the "large group" may very well seem vastly larger than it is, simply because those who have no issue with the HO aren't as adamantly (and vocally) defending their stance, so seem smaller by comparison.  Loud group vs. quiet group, which is larger?  (This would be one of those questions from school, where the answer is "not enough information").

I could toss in that the non-HO group as a whole has also seem (IMO) more disrespectful and confrontational than the "pro-HO group".  I see derogatory comments slung at those who are accused (rightly or wrongly) of HOing every single time I log into the game.  How does that equate to a higher level of sportsmanship?
MtnMan

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Offline shiv

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Re: When Is It Alright to HO?
« Reply #182 on: September 09, 2011, 03:47:33 PM »
I could toss in that the non-HO group as a whole has also seem (IMO) more disrespectful and confrontational than the "pro-HO group".  I see derogatory comments slung at those who are accused (rightly or wrongly) of HOing every single time I log into the game.  How does that equate to a higher level of sportsmanship?

Does a sense of sportsmanship preclude complaining about perceived bad sportsmanship? Not so sure I would agree with that. Where's the fun in having a high horse if you can't take it out for a ride now and then?

For my part I don't ho because it's rude and I don't like it done to me. Golden rule and all that.

« Last Edit: September 09, 2011, 03:49:07 PM by shiv »
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Offline mtnman

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Re: When Is It Alright to HO?
« Reply #183 on: September 09, 2011, 05:42:02 PM »
Does a sense of sportsmanship preclude complaining about perceived bad sportsmanship? Not so sure I would agree with that. Where's the fun in having a high horse if you can't take it out for a ride now and then?

For my part I don't ho because it's rude and I don't like it done to me. Golden rule and all that.



What's rude about it?

I can see getting on the high horse every now and again, sure.  I kind of like the idea, actually, if it's deserved.

In this case though, I see it as a fantasy horse, at best. 

That puts it into a class more-closely resembling "putting on airs" than "getting on a high horse..."
« Last Edit: September 09, 2011, 05:44:39 PM by mtnman »
MtnMan

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Offline Puma44

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Re: When Is It Alright to HO?
« Reply #184 on: September 09, 2011, 05:47:35 PM »
Right, because firing a guided missile from 10s of miles away some how translates into dog fighting in a game  :rofl 

No, it translates into a kill.  Don't read something into my statement that I didn't say. 



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Offline Puma44

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Re: When Is It Alright to HO?
« Reply #185 on: September 09, 2011, 05:48:57 PM »
Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't today pilots only allowed to fire at visual range? Or was that only Vietnam?

That depends on ROE.



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Offline Noir

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Re: When Is It Alright to HO?
« Reply #186 on: September 09, 2011, 05:50:10 PM »
 Shoot when you can, expect "sportsmanship" and you are dead. That's the sport we're playing.  :angel:
now posting as SirNuke

Offline shiv

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Re: When Is It Alright to HO?
« Reply #187 on: September 09, 2011, 06:21:03 PM »
What's rude about it?

I can see getting on the high horse every now and again, sure.  I kind of like the idea, actually, if it's deserved.

In this case though, I see it as a fantasy horse, at best. 

That puts it into a class more-closely resembling "putting on airs" than "getting on a high horse..."

I think hoing is rude, sure. I'm looking for a fight and shooting someone in the face is not much of a fight. Especially if the hoer is the second or third plane in, which is where most of the successful hos happen.

It's not war after all; it's a game. And a game does imply some standard of sportsmanship, although with the anonymity of the Internet some players choose to ignore that.

As for complaining, most of the hoing complaints are done with an eye to changing the hoer's behavior. As with all the other complaints of ganging and hording on 200 and on here for the most part.

Seems to be the way the community works. Social obloquy is a tool players use to try and change gameplay that they find objectionable, of which hoing is one.




















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Offline mtnman

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Re: When Is It Alright to HO?
« Reply #188 on: September 09, 2011, 07:05:54 PM »
I think hoing is rude, sure. I'm looking for a fight and shooting someone in the face is not much of a fight. Especially if the hoer is the second or third plane in, which is where most of the successful hos happen.

It's not war after all; it's a game. And a game does imply some standard of sportsmanship, although with the anonymity of the Internet some players choose to ignore that.

As for complaining, most of the hoing complaints are done with an eye to changing the hoer's behavior. As with all the other complaints of ganging and hording on 200 and on here for the most part.

Seems to be the way the community works. Social obloquy is a tool players use to try and change gameplay that they find objectionable, of which hoing is one.


Yea, I can see where you're coming from with your social obloquy avenue.  After all it's really the same tactic I'm using here, no?

And again, the "sportsmanship" argument really doesn't apply when it comes to HO's, nor does the argument that it somehow degrades the fight.  Actually, I think you're about 180 degrees off there.  I think a lack of "Ho-threat" would absolutely destroy any semblance of legitimacy to the fights in AH.  The HO "threat" is an absolutely vital component, even if it doesn't occur.

I can see the sportsmanship argument applying when it comes to ganging, in at least a fair share of instances (but not all, certainly).  There are definitely instances where a 3v1 is a fair fight.  4 on 1?  Seldom...  5 on 1?  I've witnessed fights where Shane was alone vs 5 determined pilots, and those 5 poor guys didn't stand a chance (heck, I was one of them)...
MtnMan

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Offline The Fugitive

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Re: When Is It Alright to HO?
« Reply #189 on: September 09, 2011, 07:11:46 PM »
What's rude about it?

I can see getting on the high horse every now and again, sure.  I kind of like the idea, actually, if it's deserved.

In this case though, I see it as a fantasy horse, at best. 

That puts it into a class more-closely resembling "putting on airs" than "getting on a high horse..."

We have had this argument before so I am not going to go round and round again with a game of words.

What it comes down to is how you play the game, period. Players like mtnman and others play the game for the kill. For them it is unimportant "how" they get the kill, only that they get it. This goes for every newbi dweeb all the way up the skill ladder to players well skilled like mtnman.

On the other hand there are those like me, and Shiv and many others who play this game for the fight. To us, out flying and "saddling up" to then saw a wing off the other guy is what its all about for us. To us there is an "honor" to the fight, after all its the whole reason for being there.

It's kinda like having a shoot out at high noon. The clock strikes 12, we turn towards the other player and flip our over coat back behind the holster to clear our draw of our trusty 6 gun. Mean while the other guy does the same only to reveal a couple of uzi's. It just kinda takes the fun out of the fight!

Offline shiv

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Re: When Is It Alright to HO?
« Reply #190 on: September 09, 2011, 07:38:24 PM »
Yea, I can see where you're coming from with your social obloquy avenue.  After all it's really the same tactic I'm using here, no?


Got me there, lol.

And again, the "sportsmanship" argument really doesn't apply when it comes to HO's, nor does the argument that it somehow degrades the fight.  Actually, I think you're about 180 degrees off there.  I think a lack of "Ho-threat" would absolutely destroy any semblance of legitimacy to the fights in AH.  The HO "threat" is an absolutely vital component, even if it doesn't occur.

I can sort of see your point, But there were no HOs in Air Warrior. Well there were but they had no effect due to the hit bubble so it came down to the same thing. And the fights were fun, even without the ho threat. So I'm not sure how vital a component the ho threat is.



« Last Edit: September 09, 2011, 07:50:49 PM by shiv »
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Offline Tilt

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Re: When Is It Alright to HO?
« Reply #191 on: September 09, 2011, 07:44:24 PM »
There is no right or wrong to head ons......its just dumb.

You have put your self infront of the other guys guns hoping against all odds that your some how going to get lucky.

It takes two to HO. One might be trying more than the other but in the end both sides have defacto decided that each's guns are pointing at the other.....................

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Offline ink

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Re: When Is It Alright to HO?
« Reply #192 on: September 09, 2011, 07:50:40 PM »
Got me there, lol.

I can sort of see your point, But there were no HOs in Air Warrior. Well there were but they had no effect due to the hit bubble but it came down to the same thing. And the fights were fun, even without the ho threat. So I'm not sure how vital a component the ho threat is.





I completely agree with Mtnmn the HO keeps the fight honest....to get rid of it, would ruin it to me, you know I am not a "HOer"  yup I have HOed but like you I would much rather have a great fight....if there were no HO's then it would all just be the lame fly by each other and pull hard on stick, see who can get around faster, with a HO involved, its more about setting up the merge to get the kill on first merge and denying a shot to the nme con,  so when you have someone who "knows" how to dance it turns into a great fight for the most part......if the HO was gone I have a feeling the fights would just not be the same. and quite unrealistic.

Offline shiv

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Re: When Is It Alright to HO?
« Reply #193 on: September 09, 2011, 07:55:28 PM »
I completely agree with Mtnmn the HO keeps the fight honest....to get rid of it, would ruin it to me, you know I am not a "HOer"  yup I have HOed but like you I would much rather have a great fight....if there were no HO's then it would all just be the lame fly by each other and pull hard on stick, see who can get around faster, with a HO involved, its more about setting up the merge to get the kill on first merge and denying a shot to the nme con,  so when you have someone who "knows" how to dance it turns into a great fight for the most part......if the HO was gone I have a feeling the fights would just not be the same. and quite unrealistic.

Well said and fair enough. I don't mind the ho on the merge myself, makes things easier. So I'm doing them a favor by pointing out where they're going wrong:)

I meant more in the case of post merge, especially multi-plane engagements. I just need better SA I expect though.

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Offline ink

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Re: When Is It Alright to HO?
« Reply #194 on: September 09, 2011, 07:59:18 PM »
Well said and fair enough. I don't mind the ho on the merge myself, makes things easier. So I'm doing them a favor by pointing out where they're going wrong:)

I meant more in the case of post merge, especially multi-plane engagements. I just need better SA I expect though.



ehhh  your a very good stick and know how to fight...I would not put you in the "Hoer" category in any way shape or form.


 :salute