Author Topic: When Is It Alright to HO?  (Read 8367 times)

Offline TheDudeDVant

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Re: When Is It Alright to HO?
« Reply #225 on: September 11, 2011, 12:53:23 AM »
believe what you will. I wish I had some of wldthings films. I remember fighting almost ALL the time. Very rare was it a chase. If you engaged with someone they fought back. I think I would remember the frustration that builds when you spend half your night looking for or chasing down a target, like I do now with todays play.

i dunno man.. there were fewer people then.. and way way back you paid by the minute.. think those guys ran? I bet some of them did.. lol  But other than that, I think the random player has not changed.. folk always ran.. always will..

Besides.. if they're running from you.. Thats easy to fix... Fly against a large mob and they all fly toward you!  :salute

Offline Guppy35

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Re: When Is It Alright to HO?
« Reply #226 on: September 11, 2011, 01:10:15 AM »


Flying nose to nose by another enemy aircraft holding guns and waving is an artificial situation and is not combat.

Now now Grizz.  You are starting to sound like you are playing too much again :)

This isn't combat.  No one is dying.  It's all artificial.  The guy coming in nose to nose not shooting is hoping to get the edge in a fight.  The guy coming in guns blazing nose to nose has his own agenda or is just too lazy to do anything else.  My opinion of it tends to lean towards the latter as since there is no real risk to not shooting head on, it becomes a way of avoiding the bending the airplane part of the game.  Again, just my opinion and I don't expect anyone to change.  That being said, I won't either so that 38G that turns into your nose isn't going to shoot, hoping that I might get a fight out of it instead.

In the end folks will keep doing it and we'll argue til doomsday on whether it's OK or not.  And in the end it's a choice.  I choose not to in hopes that the other guy does the same, knowing I may end up busted up or back in the tower.  My choice.  Someone shoots me in the face.  Their choice.  So it goes.

I'll disagree with Fugi in that nothing has changed.  Find a film from pre-2005 and it's all whining about the same stuff.  What's missing is it's not LA7s doing all the HOing :)

Dan/CorkyJr
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Offline grizz441

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Re: When Is It Alright to HO?
« Reply #227 on: September 11, 2011, 01:43:10 AM »
Now now Grizz.  You are starting to sound like you are playing too much again :)

This isn't combat.  No one is dying.  It's all artificial.  The guy coming in nose to nose not shooting is hoping to get the edge in a fight.  The guy coming in guns blazing nose to nose has his own agenda or is just too lazy to do anything else.  My opinion of it tends to lean towards the latter as since there is no real risk to not shooting head on, it becomes a way of avoiding the bending the airplane part of the game.  Again, just my opinion and I don't expect anyone to change.  That being said, I won't either so that 38G that turns into your nose isn't going to shoot, hoping that I might get a fight out of it instead.

In the end folks will keep doing it and we'll argue til doomsday on whether it's OK or not.  And in the end it's a choice.  I choose not to in hopes that the other guy does the same, knowing I may end up busted up or back in the tower.  My choice.  Someone shoots me in the face.  Their choice.  So it goes.

I'll disagree with Fugi in that nothing has changed.  Find a film from pre-2005 and it's all whining about the same stuff.  What's missing is it's not LA7s doing all the HOing :)


The guy coming in for the HO is especially lazy but the two pilots flying past one another holding guns are lazy themselves.  One pilot should always be maneuvering to avoid a future shot and one pilot should always be going for a shot.  Any fight that results in a nose to nose cold guns merge is a stalemate and null from that point forward.

Just out of curiosity, what percentage of the population do you think you can handle in a 1v1 situation, your 38G vs their plane if no "cheap" shots are taken? 90%?  95%?  If you can dominate the majority of the population, how is THAT combat or good sportsmanship.  I have heard Delirium whine about his 1v1's plenty of times in the MA and they usually last all but ten seconds before he waxes the guy's ass.  How is this a good fight?  Why does this "fight" require the sanctity of being unadulterated by others around him?

Why should a less skilled player hold guns in a game where the object is to shoot the other player?

Offline Guppy35

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Re: When Is It Alright to HO?
« Reply #228 on: September 11, 2011, 02:28:55 AM »
The guy coming in for the HO is especially lazy but the two pilots flying past one another holding guns are lazy themselves.  One pilot should always be maneuvering to avoid a future shot and one pilot should always be going for a shot.  Any fight that results in a nose to nose cold guns merge is a stalemate and null from that point forward.

Just out of curiosity, what percentage of the population do you think you can handle in a 1v1 situation, your 38G vs their plane if no "cheap" shots are taken? 90%?  95%?  If you can dominate the majority of the population, how is THAT combat or good sportsmanship.  I have heard Delirium whine about his 1v1's plenty of times in the MA and they usually last all but ten seconds before he waxes the guy's ass.  How is this a good fight?  Why does this "fight" require the sanctity of being unadulterated by others around him?

Why should a less skilled player hold guns in a game where the object is to shoot the other player?

If that's the object of the game for them, then I'd expect them to shoot.  As I said, it's still a choice and I choose not to.  I long ago gave up expecting the other guy not to.  I can only credit the guys who showed me the ropes, and there thing was you got better by pushing and bending your cartoon bird.  I well remember the frustration of losing often.  I also remember when all of a sudden I started to win now and then.  The satisfaction from knowing I'd taken it up a notch was what mattered.  I've never been a great stick, but I've gotten to the point where I can give some of the best sticks a good fight.  I also figure that as a vet player, how I play may have an impact on how a new guy approaches things.

I guess it depends on what is most important to you.  If a kill is the most important thing, then take the shot.  If that's your satisfaction, go for it.  It's been a long long time since I worried about whether I could get a kill, land a kill, or believed that a kill no matter how it was gotten was the reason I play the game.   I know there are lots of guys who play looking for the fight, win or lose whether that be wading into a crowd and trying to take as many as possible with them, or those sometime MA events where you run into someone on the edge of the crowd and duke it out.

I think the last time I had a chance to fly was a good example.  Bunnies and I had a couple of knock down drag out fights.  I think I got him once and he got me.  I think the third time I damaged him and he got me.  Stogey was watching the fight.  Bunnies wasn't in any shape to fight, so Stogey covered him back to base. If your approach is a kill is a kill, Stog drops down and clobbers the wreck of Bunnies.  But Bunnies fought a great and fair fight, and earned em.  Why would killing his damaged bird prove anything?  More power to him for flying so well.   I came back, ran into a 109, thought it was Bunnies, went in thinking merge and took a tater in the face from another guy in a 109.  Pretty much sums up the MA.  But those fights with Bunnies, where no one HO'd and fought it out despite the crowd, made the night worthwhile.

But as I said in my previous post.  I don't expect folks not to HO for the reasons stated.  I'm not going to for the same reasons.
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline The Fugitive

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Re: When Is It Alright to HO?
« Reply #229 on: September 11, 2011, 08:52:59 AM »
The guy coming in for the HO is especially lazy but the two pilots flying past one another holding guns are lazy themselves.  One pilot should always be maneuvering to avoid a future shot and one pilot should always be going for a shot.  Any fight that results in a nose to nose cold guns merge is a stalemate and null from that point forward.

Just out of curiosity, what percentage of the population do you think you can handle in a 1v1 situation, your 38G vs their plane if no "cheap" shots are taken? 90%?  95%?  If you can dominate the majority of the population, how is THAT combat or good sportsmanship.  I have heard Delirium whine about his 1v1's plenty of times in the MA and they usually last all but ten seconds before he waxes the guy's ass.  How is this a good fight?  Why does this "fight" require the sanctity of being unadulterated by others around him?

Why should a less skilled player hold guns in a game where the object is to shoot the other player?

Thats the point, if a less skilled player couldn't lean on the crutch of "the HO" don't you think he might learn a new trick? Once these "players with less skill" learn a few moves don't you think the chances for Guppy to be beating 90-95% of his opponents is going to start dropping? If the skill level starts climbing don't you think fights will become more abundant, and more fun?

Offline ink

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Re: When Is It Alright to HO?
« Reply #230 on: September 11, 2011, 09:31:53 AM »
Thats the point, if a less skilled player couldn't lean on the crutch of "the HO" don't you think he might learn a new trick? Once these "players with less skill" learn a few moves don't you think the chances for Guppy to be beating 90-95% of his opponents is going to start dropping? If the skill level starts climbing don't you think fights will become more abundant, and more fun?

I absolutely agree  with this . "....If the skill level starts climbing don't you think fights will become more abundant, and more fun..." 

 its up to the less skilled to want to learn and get better...not up to HTC to implement a very gamey tactic that...IE getting rid of HO shots....the fights would not be honest and true to what a dog fight with WW2 planes would have been...besides some planes the best offense is the HO so now you take away that planes ability to win a fight...


.now I know we are not re enacting WW2.....but think about this ... if the flying tigers rounds did not work on a head on merge with the zero's they would have been screwed that was their best tactic to win against them....

to remove that threat from AH would be absolutely silly and extremely lame.

Offline grizz441

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Re: When Is It Alright to HO?
« Reply #231 on: September 11, 2011, 10:49:53 AM »
Thats the point, if a less skilled player couldn't lean on the crutch of "the HO" don't you think he might learn a new trick? Once these "players with less skill" learn a few moves don't you think the chances for Guppy to be beating 90-95% of his opponents is going to start dropping? If the skill level starts climbing don't you think fights will become more abundant, and more fun?

They might be more fun in a 1v1 atmosphere more frequently, but certainly less fun in a 1v2 or 1v3 atmosphere if I am all of a sudden fighting against more competent pilots, outnumbered.  Since the 1v1 is rare in the MA, I prefer they remain as sheeple so I can take them on in large numbers and make them my puppets.  :aok

Offline mtnman

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Re: When Is It Alright to HO?
« Reply #232 on: September 11, 2011, 10:54:08 AM »
The guy coming in nose to nose not shooting is hoping to get the edge in a fight.  The guy coming in guns blazing nose to nose has his own agenda or is just too lazy to do anything else.  My opinion of it tends to lean towards the latter as since there is no real risk to not shooting head on, it becomes a way of avoiding the bending the airplane part of the game. 

The guy coming in with guns blazing has his own agenda??  LOL!

You're right, he does...  It's the same agenda as you point out for the non-shooting pilot...  He's trying to get the edge in a fight.  The guy with the guns blazing is simply being more aggressive, and trying to get that edge sooner (i.e. right away).

He's trained to do that, in essence, by trial and error when he fights "better" pilots.  He learns very quickly that if he doesn't get the "edge" within the first second or two, he's screwed.  He'll never see another opportunity to shoot.  His opportunity to shoot/win is at the merge, so he takes that opportunity.

If he makes it through the merge, and dies horribly within a few seconds afterwards as the "experienced" pilot whups him hard, that cements the idea that he has no chance against a skilled pilot if he doesn't do damage during his first, brief, opportunity.

Worse yet...  If he actually manages to hit his opponent on the merge we've got real trouble.  He's now learned that he can kill on the merge, and that he's unlikely to succeed if the fight goes beyond the merge.  Double-whammy.

Uh oh, it gets even worse...  If he fails to kill on the merge, and knows he has almost no chance of success beyond the merge, he may run.  Or if he turns, he realizes that as the seconds tick by (remember, he only has about ten to play with) to have any chance of a win he needs to do it ASAP!  That means "haul that nose around and get guns on his opponent ASAP!"  If he sees your nose anywhere close to getting a solution, he'll pull even harder ina  race to get guns on quicker than you.  He really has no other good option in his eyes, there's a very low likelihood he'll survive long enough to get guns on you (or near you) a third time.

About the only way it could be worse than that would be if he got chastised for winning the fight due to getting his nose on you quicker.  Not only does he "beat" you, you tell him how he did it ("you dirty HO'er") and expose what he sees as a chink in the experienced pilots armor (the inability to handle/defend against a FG shot).  Ooops, that happens too, doesn't it?

Realistically, the best way to "un-train" the HO might be to dodge it/disallow it (reduce its effectiveness), and then let your weaker opponent win when it comes to the more complex maneuvering aspect of the fight.  Even if he's sloppy and skill less, at least he's doing what you want right?  Let him beat you then.  It's not a war, it's not combat, nobody is dying.  Why would you want to win the fight if it might contribute to your opponent's frustration, and possibly even result in him getting more aggressive than you at a stage of the fight where it bothers you if he's aggressive?
MtnMan

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Offline mtnman

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Re: When Is It Alright to HO?
« Reply #233 on: September 11, 2011, 11:02:15 AM »
Thats the point, if a less skilled player couldn't lean on the crutch of "the HO" don't you think he might learn a new trick? Once these "players with less skill" learn a few moves don't you think the chances for Guppy to be beating 90-95% of his opponents is going to start dropping? If the skill level starts climbing don't you think fights will become more abundant, and more fun?
]

The less-skilled player can't lean on the "crutch" of the HO, unless the more experienced pilot allows it. 

Plane-choice aside, the more experienced pilot can do a ton to control how a fight progresses. 

Plane-choice included, your average player probably can't get 50% of the benefits out of his ride anyway which again allows the more experienced pilot to control the fight.

MtnMan

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Offline Guppy35

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Re: When Is It Alright to HO?
« Reply #234 on: September 11, 2011, 12:41:57 PM »
The guy coming in with guns blazing has his own agenda??  LOL!

You're right, he does...  It's the same agenda as you point out for the non-shooting pilot...  He's trying to get the edge in a fight.  The guy with the guns blazing is simply being more aggressive, and trying to get that edge sooner (i.e. right away).

He's trained to do that, in essence, by trial and error when he fights "better" pilots.  He learns very quickly that if he doesn't get the "edge" within the first second or two, he's screwed.  He'll never see another opportunity to shoot.  His opportunity to shoot/win is at the merge, so he takes that opportunity.

If he makes it through the merge, and dies horribly within a few seconds afterwards as the "experienced" pilot whups him hard, that cements the idea that he has no chance against a skilled pilot if he doesn't do damage during his first, brief, opportunity.

Worse yet...  If he actually manages to hit his opponent on the merge we've got real trouble.  He's now learned that he can kill on the merge, and that he's unlikely to succeed if the fight goes beyond the merge.  Double-whammy.

Uh oh, it gets even worse...  If he fails to kill on the merge, and knows he has almost no chance of success beyond the merge, he may run.  Or if he turns, he realizes that as the seconds tick by (remember, he only has about ten to play with) to have any chance of a win he needs to do it ASAP!  That means "haul that nose around and get guns on his opponent ASAP!"  If he sees your nose anywhere close to getting a solution, he'll pull even harder ina  race to get guns on quicker than you.  He really has no other good option in his eyes, there's a very low likelihood he'll survive long enough to get guns on you (or near you) a third time.

About the only way it could be worse than that would be if he got chastised for winning the fight due to getting his nose on you quicker.  Not only does he "beat" you, you tell him how he did it ("you dirty HO'er") and expose what he sees as a chink in the experienced pilots armor (the inability to handle/defend against a FG shot).  Ooops, that happens too, doesn't it?

Realistically, the best way to "un-train" the HO might be to dodge it/disallow it (reduce its effectiveness), and then let your weaker opponent win when it comes to the more complex maneuvering aspect of the fight.  Even if he's sloppy and skill less, at least he's doing what you want right?  Let him beat you then.  It's not a war, it's not combat, nobody is dying.  Why would you want to win the fight if it might contribute to your opponent's frustration, and possibly even result in him getting more aggressive than you at a stage of the fight where it bothers you if he's aggressive?

You are arguing the point but I'm not disagreeing with you.  It's all about choice.  I choose not to.  I expect that other folks will.  I gave up condemning it a while back.  It is what it is.  That being said, I'm not going to pat a guy on the back for trying to take a HO shot and never take the fight further.

I choose not to HO because of the reasons stated.  You feel free to let fly every time. I won't complain on 200 or PM you with nasty remarks.  I also won't tell you I'm impressed.  I will tell the guy that clobbers me by out flying me 'nice job' :)

You can blast me with a wall of text with all the 'reasons' why it's a good thing.  I don't buy it.  My opinion, nothing more.
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline The Fugitive

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Re: When Is It Alright to HO?
« Reply #235 on: September 11, 2011, 01:09:45 PM »
You are arguing the point but I'm not disagreeing with you.  It's all about choice.  I choose not to.  I expect that other folks will.  I gave up condemning it a while back.  It is what it is.  That being said, I'm not going to pat a guy on the back for trying to take a HO shot and never take the fight further.

I choose not to HO because of the reasons stated.  You feel free to let fly every time. I won't complain on 200 or PM you with nasty remarks.  I also won't tell you I'm impressed.  I will tell the guy that clobbers me by out flying me 'nice job' :)

You can blast me with a wall of text with all the 'reasons' why it's a good thing.  I don't buy it.  My opinion, nothing more.

You always have such a way with words   :aok  I agree

Offline mtnman

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Re: When Is It Alright to HO?
« Reply #236 on: September 11, 2011, 03:31:50 PM »
You always have such a way with words   :aok  I agree

Uh oh!  That makes two of us!

I'd never congratulate someone for beating me with the HO either, simply because I consider allowing myself to lose to it beating myself.

And I'm really not saying I consider it a "good" thing, just a "vitally important" thing.  It's potential/presence in the game is necessary, even if it's never used...
MtnMan

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Offline MutleyBR

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Re: When Is It Alright to HO?
« Reply #237 on: September 11, 2011, 05:44:54 PM »
Hi all!

Here is a short AH film. What would you do in this situation?

I HOed and felt very good after doing so.  :bolt:   

http://www.mediafire.com/?1c6hz6q12m33ck0

Mutley  :salute
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Offline Wiley

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Re: When Is It Alright to HO?
« Reply #238 on: September 12, 2011, 10:36:59 AM »

And I'm really not saying I consider it a "good" thing, just a "vitally important" thing.  It's potential/presence in the game is necessary, even if it's never used...

I really wish I could have expressed myself in the past when this has come up as well as MtnMan has in this thread.  Well put, sir.

Wiley.
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