Author Topic: *CiCs, players and CMs take note re the T+60 rule*  (Read 878 times)

Offline Squire

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*CiCs, players and CMs take note re the T+60 rule*
« on: September 03, 2011, 06:05:15 PM »
- Frame CiC's must assign squads to hit all targets within the first hour of the frame.

That rule has been used up untill now since the T+60 rule has been implemented to indicate that any and all bomber/attack/fighter-bomber aircraft and missions will be tasked to hit their targets no later than T+60.

That is the rule.

The T+60 rule was never intended to have loopholes or exceptions. Any such loopholes or exceptions makes the entire point of the rule moot.

If you disagree with that feel free but the final say on FSO rules and their interpretations is the CM teams and thats the ruling as of today.

Orders will not be issued to any strike unit or aircraft that has them reaching their initial strike targets by later than T+60 minutes. You may rtb and re sortie as time permits after T+60 as is our practice.

As the new CM Team lead I will review the wording in the rules and make any clarifications I think are needed in due course (I didn't author them). Untill then the above is the law of the land, as it were.

If there was any confusion on the T+60 rule thats unfortunate and I am not pointing fingers at any one player or squad or CMs. This is just about clarifying what we need to do and moving on.

I thank you for your cooperation and attention.
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Offline Drano

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Re: *CiCs, players and CMs take note re the T+60 rule*
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2011, 08:11:26 PM »
Agreed Squire.

Let's keep up people. The "T+60 rule" didn't come out last week or last year even. Been that way a while. Not hard to figure out. Attack the targets before T+60. It has to be an ACTUAL attack. I'm mystified as to the mystery here. A chimp could figure it out. As Keyshawn would say--"Come on, Man!"
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Offline WxMan

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Re: *CiCs, players and CMs take note re the T+60 rule*
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2011, 07:58:05 AM »
This latest ammendment to the T+60 rule restricts the creativity of any CiC, while rewarding the blood lust of any foolish Squad CO who commits all of his defensive forces to a smaller "legal" attacking force. While I disagree with you, it is your sandbox.

Posting endless addendems to the rules among various threads puts an onerus burden for any CiC to keep up with. All changes to the rules should be made on the AH Event Site, while adding specificty to your intent.

With this particular rule in mind, I propose the following changes on the AH Event Site: FSO Rules.

Section 5. Events and Settings

- All targets must be attacked within 60 minutes of the start of the frame. They must be attacked with explosive ordinance, (rockets and bombs) by a full squadron. Feints and diversions prior to a larger strike force do not satisfy the requirements of this rule. Simply strafing a target with fighters does not satisfy the requirements of this rule. CIC's are expected to construct their orders in such a way that the main attacks reach their targets by T+60. Administrator CM's may request copies of orders to evaluate the observance of this rule.

-All targets must be attacked with all assets within 60 minutes of the start of the frame. The attack must include ordnance.


Section 6. Responsibilities.

Squad Operations Frame CiC:

- Frame CiC's must assign squads to hit all targets within the first hour of the frame.

- Frame CiC's must assign squads to attack all targets with every asset within 60 minutes of the start of the frame. The attack must include explosive ordnance, (rockets and/or bombs) by at least a small? medium? large? squadron .  Simply strafing a target with fighters does not satisfy the requirements of this rule. CIC's are expected to construct their orders in such a way that the entire attack force reach their targets by T+60. CiC's must send copies of their orders to Administrator CM's to evaluate the observance of this rule.

 :salute




« Last Edit: September 04, 2011, 08:10:39 AM by WxMan »
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Offline AKP

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Re: *CiCs, players and CMs take note re the T+60 rule*
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2011, 10:24:20 AM »
I agree with WxMan that the rules section should be amended.  If the intent is that ALL squads must attack their target by T+60, then that is the way it should be written.  As it is written now does leave a loophole, and section 6 seems to contradict section 5.  To me, as it is written now, it is stating that each target must be attacked by T+60, but not that each squad must do so... giving rise to "late frame" strikes that are becoming more and more common.
    
However, I think that there is still enough room for "creativity" when planning strike missions and still adhere to the intent of the rule that Frame CiC's must assign ALL squads to hit all targets within the first hour of the frame.

Example #1: Lets say that due to logistics, a larger squad is assigned to attack a smaller target.  Knowing that the target will be easily destroyed and not all of the ordinance expended on it, the CiC can assign a secondary target to the squad.  Or... keep them as an "ace in the hole" to be used for another target that didnt take enough damage.  Keeping in mind that they MUST hit their primary target by T+60... AND that their secondary target must also be hit by another attack force as a primary target before T+60 in order to satisfy the rule.

Example #2: Multiple waves would still be allowed as long as the second wave hits the target by T+60.  The waves could be made up of multiple squads hitting at different times, or a larger single squad hitting at different times.  As long as all assets attack by T+60.

Example #3: Second strikes after a rearm would still be able to hit AFTER T+60 as long as they have enough time to reach their target, and land safely prior to the end of the frame.


The T+60 rule is meant to ensure everyone sees combat, and sees it in a timely fashion.  No one likes flying around for 90 minutes and seeing nothing.  But, it does not mean that defenders should be able to say "Ok boys... we have been attacked and now its over, we can go home and log off".  No no no... they need to stay on station, or rearm and reup even after the primary attack is over.  Because there may indeed be another attack coming from a group that has either already rearmed, or the group that just attacked may rearm and come back if they have enough time.  And if the attack occurred early in the frame, another wave timed to hit before T+60 may still be coming in.

There is plenty of room to be creative and think outside the box, but still stay within the rules.

The penalty for not following the T+60 rule should be simple.  It can be easily seen in the logs if an attack group hit their target after T+60, and had no other strike before it.  In such a case, the damage to ground targets that occurred from their attack would not count for scoring purposes.  It would be as if none of their bombs ever hit their targets.  A warning to the offending CiC or squad should also be issued, just like the warnings for not making attendance commitments that are issued now.

We have to ensure the rules are clearly written for everyone to see on the AH events site.  We cannot rely on intentions.  Intentions are interpreted differently by everyone... and lead to disputes about the rules as we are having now.  Posting them here is just not enough... the rules need to be complete, and in one place for everyone to read.

Please amend the rules on the AH Events website as soon as possible... because we have been having THIS discussion almost every month lately.  Its time to put this one to rest.

 :salute
« Last Edit: September 04, 2011, 10:58:03 AM by AKP »

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Offline bc21

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Re: *CiCs, players and CMs take note re the T+60 rule*
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2011, 08:59:09 PM »
Not  disagreeing with the new rule... how ever if as in the last fso i had A/c that were capible of strike or fighter and told them to up as fighter am I in the wrong?

Offline ImADot

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Re: *CiCs, players and CMs take note re the T+60 rule*
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2011, 10:01:10 PM »
Not  disagreeing with the new rule... how ever if as in the last fso i had A/c that were capible of strike or fighter and told them to up as fighter am I in the wrong?


"scoring" as fighter or attack is not used in FSO like it is in the Mains. Scoring is based on the event designer's...design. What "scoring" mode you select at takeoff is irrelevant. It's what the plane is loaded with and what it kills that matters.
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Offline Viper61

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Re: *CiCs, players and CMs take note re the T+60 rule*
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2011, 10:39:05 PM »
Request that as you make a change to the H+60 rule that don't remove the CIC's ability for late frame strikes.  I can see the thinking above that a rule change won't eliminate that and that it would mean that a CIC would need to hustle to the target hit it prior to H+60 RTB rearm and then get back to the target, strike it and RTB again.

Unfortunately the maps / bases / AC types and target locations often don't allow for this to happen.  As we all know most heavy bombers can't launch from the airfield, get to a significantly high enough altitude to protect themselves, get formed up, get the escorts into position and strike a target twice in two hours.  Smart CIC's know this and often release their defenders after the first main strike at H+60.

One of the main threats that a good CIC will use is his ability to strike late frame with significant assists.  Not ADHOC thrown together assists that "might" be left after the initial strike.  This keeps the defenders in place and in military terms "fixed".  If the rule is changed it will favor the defender significantly and the CIC that can do the math and figure out the times and legs will use this very effectively.

As an example using the present scenario set up which is more defensive for the AXIS side.  If this rule were in place currently with the AC / fields and such as is.  I would release all AXIS defenders after H+60 and have them all surge forward to a single target and overwhelm the remaining ALLIED AC in that sector.  And finish the ground targets with strafing AC.  that type of scneario the AXIS AC have the advantage in their design and in greater numbers.  Do think that is fair?  Consider that before you change the rule.