FW-190 A-8CLARIFICATION,FIX,DISPUTE

[Karnak]

what it meant to him, was that he was thankful that the luftwaffe didn't have any good pilots left to fly those things.

That still doesn't help.  Because of the "too the death" style of AH combat, turn ability is over emphasized.  Nothing in his claim indicates that the Fw190 should turn with a P-38, just that it was competitive in combat.  Despite the frequent complaints to the contrary, German iron seems to hold its own pretty well in scenarios in AH.

[RTHolmes]

... just to clarify, since noone seems to have done so yet:

 AH 190A8, 170 US gal, 4x20mms - 9,682lb
 RL 190A8, 170 US gal, 4x20mms - 9,717lb

so our AH 190A8 is 35lb too light.

[gyrene81]

... just to clarify, since noone seems to have done so yet:

 AH 190A8, 170 US gal, 4x20mms - 9,682lb
 RL 190A8, 170 US gal, 4x20mms - 9,717lb

so our AH 190A8 is 35lb too light.

where did you come up with 9717lbs for rl weight?

i'm looking at 9,452 -55lbs for winter equipment + 265lbs for fuselage tank = 9,662lbs  (4x 20mm, 2x 13mm, 100% fuel)

[RTHolmes]

is our A8 not fitted with winter equipment?

[Ack-Ack]

why i cant see a g6?

Because there wasn't a Luftwaffe plane ever built that could out perform the best Allied planes.

ack-ack

[Debrody]

Because there wasn't a Luftwaffe plane ever built that could out perform the best Allied planes.

ack-ack

sorry akak but its pure lying

lets see the rides:
109F/190A: best aircrafts in 1941-42
262...  uhm...  it was a real PoS, totally uncompetitive in '44

lets see the names:
Erich Hartmann                      352            WWII           Germany
Gerhard Barkhorn                    301            WWII           Germany
Guenther Rall                       275            WWII           Germany
Otto Kittel                         267            WWII           Germany
Walter Nowotny                      258(2)         WWII           Germany
Wilhelm Batz                        237            WWII           Germany
Erich Rudorffer                     222(12)        WWII           Germany
Heinrich Baer                       220(16)        WWII           Germany
Hermann Graf                        212            WWII           Germany
Heinrich Ehrler                     209(5, 220?)   WWII           Germany
Theodore Weissenburger              209(8, 252?)   WWII           Germany
Hans Philip                         206            WWII           Germany
Walter Schuck                       206(8)         WWII           Germany
Anton Hafner                        204            WWII           Germany
Helmut Lipfert                      203            WWII           Germany
Walter Krupinski                    197            WWII           Germany
Anton Hackl                         192            WWII           Germany
Maximilian Stotz                    189            WWII           Germany
Joachim Brendel                     189            WWII           Germany
Joachim Kirschner                   188            WWII           Germany
Kurt Hans Friedrich Brandle         180            WWII           Germany
Guenther Josten                     178            WWII           Germany
Johannes Steinhoff                  176(6)         WWII           Germany
Ernst-Wilhelm Reinert               174            WWII           Germany
Gunther Schack                      174            WWII           Germany
Heinz "Johnny" Schmidt              173            WWII           Germany
Emil Lang                           173            WWII           Germany
Horst Adameit                       166            WWII           Germany
Wolf-Dietrich Wilke                 162(161?)      WWII           Germany
Hans-Joachim Marseille              158            WWII           Germany
Heinrich Sturm                      158(157?)      WWII           Germany
Gerhard Thyben                      157            WWII           Germany
Hans Beiswenger                     152            WWII           Germany
Peter Duettmann                     152            WWII           Germany
Gordon Gollob                       150            WWII           Germany
Fritz Tegtmeier                     146            WWII           Germany
Albin Wolf                          144(176?)      WWII           Germany
Kurt Tanzer                         143            WWII           Germany
Friedrich-Karl "Tutti" Mueller      140            WWII           Germany
Karl Gratz                          138            WWII           Germany
Heinrich Setz                       138            WWII           Germany
Rudolf Trenkel                      138            WWII           Germany
Horst-Guenther von Fassong          137            WWII           Germany
Herbert Ihlefeld                    137(7 Spain)   WWII           Germany
Franz Schall                        137(14)        WWII           Germany
Walter Wolfrum                      137            WWII           Germany
Adolf Dickfeld                      136            WWII           Germany
Otto Foennekold                     136            WWII           Germany
Karl-Heinz Weber                    136            WWII           Germany
Joachim Muencheberg                 135            WWII           Germany
Hans Waldmann                       134(2)         WWII           Germany
Alfred Grislawski                   133            WWII           Germany
Walter Oesau                        133(8 Spain)   WWII           Germany
Johannes Weise                      133(208?)      WWII           Germany
Adolf Borchers                      132            WWII           Germany
Erwin Clausen                       132            WWII           Germany
Wilhelm Lemke                       131            WWII           Germany
Heinrich "Bazi" Sterr               130            WWII           Germany
Franz Eisenach                      129            WWII           Germany
Walter Dahl                         128            WWII           Germany
Franz Doerr                         128            WWII           Germany
Friedrich Obleser                   127            WWII           Germany
Rudolf Rademacher                   126(8)         WWII           Germany
Josef "Jupp" Zwernemann             126            WWII           Germany
Gerhard Hoffman                     125            WWII           Germany
Dietrich Hrabak                     125            WWII           Germany
Wolf-Udo Ettel                      124            WWII           Germany
Wolfgang Tonne                      122            WWII           Germany
Heinz Marquardt                     121            WWII           Germany
Heinz-Wolfgang Schnaufer            121(night)     WWII           Germany
Robert Weiss                        121            WWII           Germany
Erich Leie                          118            WWII           Germany
Guenther Luetzow                    113(5 Spain)   WWII           Germany
Reinhard Seiler                     118(9 Spain)   WWII           Germany
Hans Beerenbrock                    117            WWII           Germany
Hans-Joachim Birkner                117(Hartmann)  WWII           Germany
Jakob Norz                          117            WWII           Germany
Heinz "Piepl" Wernicke              117            WWII           Germany
August Lambert                      116            WWII           Germany
Werner Moelders                     115(14 Spain)  WWII           Germany
Wilhelm Crinius                     114            WWII           Germany
Werner Schroer                      114            WWII           Germany
Hans Dammers                        113            WWII           Germany
Berthold Korts                      113            WWII           Germany
Kurt Buhlingen                      112            WWII           Germany
Helmut Lent                         110(102 night) WWII           Germany
Kurt Ubben                          110            WWII           Germany
Franz Woidich                       110            WWII           Germany
Emil Bitsch                         108            WWII           Germany
Hans "Assi" Hahn                    108            WWII           Germany
Bernard Vechtel                     108            WWII           Germany
Viktor Bauer                        106            WWII           Germany
Werner Lucas                        106            WWII           Germany
Adolf Galland                       104(7)         WWII           Germany
Heinz Sachsenberg                   104            WWII           Germany
Hartmann Grasser                    103            WWII           Germany
Seigfried Freytag                   102            WWII           Germany
Friedrich Geisshardt                102            WWII           Germany
Egon Mayer                          102            WWII           Germany
Max-Hellmuth Ostermann              102            WWII           Germany
Josef Wurmheller                    102            WWII           Germany
Herbert Rollwage                    102            WWII           Germany
Rudolf Miethig                      101            WWII           Germany
Rudolf Mueller                      101            WWII           Germany
Josef "Pips" Priller                101            WWII           Germany
Ulrich Wernitz                      101            WWII           Germany
Paul-Heinrich Daehne                100            WWII           Germany

Dezso Szentgyorgyi                  34             WWII           Hungary
Gyorgy Debrody                      26             WWII           Hungary

James E. Johnson                    36.91(38?)     WWII           UK
Brendon E. Finucane                 32             WWII           UK(Irish)
Robert Braham                       29             WWII           UK

There we go.

[Ack-Ack]

lets see the rides:
109F/190A: best aircrafts in 1941-42

While not an Allied plane, a very good argument can be made that the A6M Zero the better aircraft during those years, it was by far the more maneuverable one.  But I digress, as the Zeke wasn't Allied but then you can also make the argument that the Spitfire  (Mk I and Mk V) were very much equals to the planes you've listed during those years and later Spitfire marks surpassed them as the war went on.  

262...  uhm...  it was a real PoS, totally uncompetitive in '44

not that it was a POS, but it wasn't the stellar plane that the History Channel and Luftwhiners have claimed it was.  The biggest impact the Me 262 had was ushering in the combat jet age, not that it was some fantastic early jet aircraft.  Did you know that a P-51D and a P-47 could catch one in a dive?  

ta-154 (no misspelling)

Are you serious?  Did you know that the Nazi's took the name from the Mosquito in recognition to the superior qualities of the RAF plane and that Erhard Milch wanted a German version of the Mosquito?  Did you also know that the few production models that were made, their performance was less than impressive than the prototypes?

You're not using very good examples of showing LW aircraft superiority.

lets see the names:
*snip*

There we go.

While the number of German aces is impressive, you must look at their numbers in the proper context.  The majority of German aces were on the Eastern Front during the early part of the war, primarily 1941-mid 1943, when the quality of both Soviet pilots and equipment wasn't on par with the Luftwaffe.  After mid-1943 when better Soviet aircraft and pilots started to enter the war, the number of Luftwaffe aces started to drop, not just in kill counts but also in lives.  I believe the Luftwaffe aces that spent the majority (if not all) their service on the Western Front achieved far less kills, think there were only a couple of 100+ kill aces.

The ace list you posted again, doesn't support the argument that the Luftwaffe could build a plane that could out perform the best Allied planes.  It does show that the Luftwaffe had a field day in the first few years of the air war on the Eastern Front.

ack-ack

[4brkfast]

How so?


It is generally accepted that the one you refer to as the Ic, the Ki-84 Hei, was only ever armed with a single Ho-115 30-mm in the right wing and nothing in the left but since the weapon was experimental it may have often flown with the weapon removed altogether & the total number of this type might number as few as 3 units.

Ihttp://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/japan/japfighters-comp.jpg

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/wiki/index.php/Ki-84-la

According to the comparison chart, at 21k the real 'Frank' flew at 422 miles per hour and 350 at sea level.

AH2 has it at, from what I can tell from the chart, ~380 mph on wep at ~18k and ~340 at sea level.

Also, laughingly, the 'Frank' could climb at 3200 fpm at 21k, compared to the 2500 fpm at the same alt.

Looking at the plane to the right on the chart, the 'Jack' or J2M I think(it doesn't really say) looks like an incredibly capable fighter and would fit into this game well I think.

That upper website has some really cool AAR's form the 56th Fighter group and many others, some good reads(if you can make out some of the handwriting).

[Ack-Ack]

Ihttp://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/japan/japfighters-comp.jpg

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/wiki/index.php/Ki-84-la

According to the comparison chart, at 21k the real 'Frank' flew at 422 miles per hour and 350 at sea level.

AH2 has it at, from what I can tell from the chart, ~380 mph on wep at ~18k and ~340 at sea level.

Also, laughingly, the 'Frank' could climb at 3200 fpm at 21k, compared to the 2500 fpm at the same alt.

Looking at the plane to the right on the chart, the 'Jack' or J2M I think(it doesn't really say) looks like an incredibly capable fighter and would fit into this game well I think.

That upper website has some really cool AAR's form the 56th Fighter group and many others, some good reads(if you can make out some of the handwriting).

I believe those figures for the Ki-84 on that chart were derived from the Ki-84 using a better quality of fuel (with a higher octane level) during those US flight tests than what the Ki-84 used when in operational service with the Japanese.

ack-ack

[DMVIAGRA]

MY GOD, THE A8 IS OVER WEGIHT BY 1000 LBS?!?! OH REALLY? I PRESSED THIS ISSUE A LONG TIME AGO LIKE, FIVE MONTHS AND NOBODY SAID ANYTHING FOR LIKOH E FOUR MONTHS, NOW IT'S OVER LOADING THE FORUMS!!!                

[Guppy35]

sorry akak but its pure lying

Emil Lang                           173            WWII           Germany

The majority of Bully Lang's kills were on the Eastern front.  He was shot down by a Spit XII pilot for his only air to air kill of the war outside of V-1s kills September 3, 1944.   So was the Spitfire driver a  better pilot because he killed Lange in air to air combat or was Lange?  You'd have to give it to the single kill Spit driver based on his still flying at the end of the fight.  In the end it's a silly argument though wouldn't you agree?

To make a comparison you really need to include sorties flown, and theater flown in.  Also keep in account massive overclaiming.  There was just a discussion on another board  regarding Bartels, a 100+ Luftwaffe ace.  He claimed 7 P-38s over two days as part of 19 total LW P-38 claims.  This was over their own turf.  One P-38 was actually lost and one damaged that returned to base.  Someone else then pointed out he had 2 Mustang claims on another mission and there were none.  Again over his own turf.  I get it that pilots over claim, in particular over the other guy's turf where there is nothing to confirm it beyond gun camera film, but getting credit for 9 phantom kills over your own turf, makes those 100 + kill Aces suspect.

So lets agree that every country produced good pilots but lets not get carried away with the numbers too much

[The Fugitive]

MY GOD, THE A8 IS OVER WEGIHT BY 1000 LBS?!?! OH REALLY? I PRESSED THIS ISSUE A LONG TIME AGO LIKE, FIVE MONTHS AND NOBODY SAID ANYTHING FOR LIKOH E FOUR MONTHS, NOW IT'S OVER LOADING THE FORUMS!!!                

maybe because you keep using those over-sized red, capitals letters that everyone just ignores your posts.  

[nrshida]

Ihttp://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/japan/japfighters-comp.jpg

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/wiki/index.php/Ki-84-la

According to the comparison chart, at 21k the real 'Frank' flew at 422 miles per hour and 350 at sea level.

AH2 has it at, from what I can tell from the chart, ~380 mph on wep at ~18k and ~340 at sea level.

Also, laughingly, the 'Frank' could climb at 3200 fpm at 21k, compared to the 2500 fpm at the same alt.

Looking at the plane to the right on the chart, the 'Jack' or J2M I think(it doesn't really say) looks like an incredibly capable fighter and would fit into this game well I think.

That upper website has some really cool AAR's form the 56th Fighter group and many others, some good reads(if you can make out some of the handwriting).

We've got the early production Ko, which is the heaviest of the production variants (not counting the emergency material later versions) and also the one with the least powerful engine. Also HTC models the poor fuel which was employed I understand. Nevertheless I find it quite a capable fighter.

There are three incorrectly modelled features I am currently aware of with AH's Ki-84, but perhaps we'd best not hijack the 190 thread.  

[DMVIAGRA]

maybe because you keep using those over-sized red, capitals letters that everyone just ignores your posts.  

Sorry but I'm really annoyed, I think HiTech monitors the forums enough to know about this. I'm sick of all these pages and pages about the A8, guess what I get the message. Anyone with a thick head would be able to understand. I mean, this is worse than the spam of the Hellcat forums, I fully approved of the wish, but I know is was post TOO MANY TIMES. Can't we please just hold this to one single forum? You're blocking out all of the other people's posts, I'm sure HiTech is kicking himself for the mistake. We all understand.

Now I'm going to put in my own five cents here.

You are all correct about all of the above (Six pages highlighted). It is over weight, this would greatly increase the manuverability and climb rate. If this was fixed, it would be an excellent bomber hunter (Imagine about two or five of these up against a B-29). It would be a better bomber hunter than a Bf-110 probably. The Bf-110 has a heavier package which is a favorite of mine, it's also twin engine so if you loose an engine it's kind of funny to still survive. However the Bf-109 is a greater performer.

I think I kind of went off topic on this post but you understand me.

[Debrody]

ok akak you da man, your statements are nonsense again

-the zeek is far more maneuverable then the 109f.  who cares, the 109f is 50+mph faster than the 1941 zeeks   spit5? still 20mph+ advantage and could keep up in turning for a while     p38g?  f4f?  p40s? mig3? you kidding?  
-ya also the dora or 190a5 could catch the 262 in a dive  sidenote: if they had moe than 10k alt advantage     show me any other 530mph ride from 1944 plz.
The germans had the best planes in '41-42 and in '44-45   while they had numbers in the mid-war, the lack of the mass-production and new pilots made the uber late war rides near useless

hmm   Hartmann scored his kills on the eastern front    same with Nowi   Krupinsky    etc etc   of course they had a harder job since the russians had three times more aircraft then them...  come on. Still: la5=g15  la7=k4

Youre only a little bit arrogant dude. Plazus said something silly then you grab an extract from my answer and make an even sillyer statement. Would be nice if you could think it through before you make a post like that one.