Nice! New Panzer IV! 3 variants!!!

[save]

IRL many german AP rounds had an explosive charge meant for exploding inside the tank it just penetrated.

[SmokinLoon]

IRL many german AP rounds had an explosive charge meant for exploding inside the tank it just penetrated.

Not until the LW am I aware of German AP rounds, namely the King Tiger's 88mm "PzGr.39-43 APC-HE", being designed to explode after 30-40mm armor penetration. I'm not sure of the exact details of when it was introduced to the battlefield or what the exact performance was. 

[theNewB]

For protection against armour piercing rounds a tank is better to have say 40mm of armour all in one piece rather than 30mm plus another 10mm of spaced armour. However the spaced armour on the Panzer IV was not designed so much for that as to protect against infantry anti-tank weapons like the Bazooka. These used a shaped charge warhead that fired a molten jet of metal through the armour igniting whatever was on the other side. The spaced armour set the charge off and the gap dissipated the molten jet so it had lost much of its power by the time it hit the main armour. To save weight and cost later Panzer IVs used wire mesh instead of sheet metal for their spaced protection.

Yay finally someone whos on the same page regarding Schurzen. Yes it was more designed at first to stop Anti-Tank Rifle rounds early on, but soon was found to help defeat shaped charge weapons aswell. The Schurzen we currently have is more geared to defeating the rifle rounds rather then Bazookas, Wire Schurzen proved better due to less material required to manufacture, and it still prematurely detonated the warhead, while the solid Schurzen we see was more orientated to Russian ATRs since they at first (and later stages aswell) had a very ample supply of those around. 41-44 the majority of tanks were being sent to the Eastern Front, while the Allies in the Mediterranean were only taking a small % of Shurzen armed tanks and making their own conclusions as to what it was for, since they found well before the Russians that ATR's were quite a last resort to stopping a tank, though some instances a brave (or forced bravery in some cases) russian soldier could make a pin-ball game inside a german tank with a 14.5mm projectile.

On that note I was wondering, if we get the StuG's in game if you could model the StuG 4 or 3 with wire Schurzen instead of the panels? just something I don't see much of in games and might cut a few minutes in design perhaps.

Not until the LW am I aware of German AP rounds, namely the King Tiger's 88mm "PzGr.39-43 APC-HE", being designed to explode after 30-40mm armor penetration. I'm not sure of the exact details of when it was introduced to the battlefield or what the exact performance was.  

I believe the name suggests it's introduction into the german military in various calibers. 1941-42 IIRC is when Panzergranate 39 APCBC-HE ammo was being used for the Tigers I's L/56, Believe the -43 is for the L/71 when that ammo was made for the Tiger II's gun.

[Big Rat]

Now the question I have for our 75mm L/24's is, are the AP rounds the hollow charge ones (GR38 H1/A-C) 70"A"-100"C"mm of penetration at 100Meters.  I can't find dates when hollow charges were available, but they were only effective at short range.  If we have these, the short 75 can do significant damage if very close.

 
BigRat

[Oldman731]

I can't find dates when hollow charges were available, but they were only effective at short range.  If we have these, the short 75 can do significant damage if very close.

Hollow charges' effects should be the same regardless of range.  The penetration is achieved by reason of the shaped charge in the shell; velocity plays no part.

Germans reputedly used shaped charges at Eben Emael in May, 1940, but I think those were demo charges.  US bazooka was the first hollow charge I can think of....1942....?  Then the Panzerschreck and Panzerfaust.  Don't know when they started making them for tanks, though.

- oldman

[theNewB]

HEAT was used in the early Panzer IV's and StuG's in France yes, but I believe we have the solid shot AP in game. '42 for the Bazooka and I think the same date for the Panzerfaust's, 1943 seems the date that comes to mind for the introduction of the Panzerschrek. It would be nice to have the many different forms of ammo available for the GVs, but not sure how far off that is.

[Big Rat]

Hollow charges' effects should be the same regardless of range.  - oldman

I agree Oldman, 100meters was the only penetration value they gave in the book "encyclopedia of German Tanks of World War Two, Chamberlain and Doyle".   It's possible that it was just a very heavy round and with poor balistics, so maybe 200 meters was beyond what they thought they could hit reliably with it  .  Albeit if they gave us that round in mid and late war it would make a great perk farmer if you could get close with it.  I do believe that it was available fairly early though, I think I can remember Micheal Wittman using that round when he was assigned an early Stug, from reading is Biography.

 
BigRat   

[LLv34_Snefens]

I agree Oldman, 100meters was the only penetration value they gave in the book "encyclopedia of German Tanks of World War Two, Chamberlain and Doyle".   It's possible that it was just a very heavy round and with poor balistics, so maybe 200 meters was beyond what they thought they could hit reliably with it  .

If you look in the table it gives an "="-sign in the other columns, meaning same penetration at those ranges as 100m.

[MK-84]

UPDATE!  (yay)

I finally got around to playing with the stubby gun in the MA.

So, with compared to the M5/75HE:

Splash dmg is much reduced with the panzer.  In the MA with the M4 one could hit a building and it would do enough dmg to the one across the street so that the next round, carefully aimed at that opposing building would destroy both.  This is not the case with the panzer. 

Notable, buildings when receiving two direct hits with the panzer seem somewhat reluctant to explode (they do, and this may be a function of lag, but I have only experienced it with this tank)  They have somewhat of a delay as if it takes ALL of the dmg to register to destroy it.

The reload time is also significantly longer than the M4/75

End result,  the gun seems great for EW, and seems great for scenarios, but is of little use in the MA.

[Big Rat]

If you look in the table it gives an "="-sign in the other columns, meaning same penetration at those ranges as 100m.

You're right, didn't put the "=" sign as registering in my brain as the same

Thanks LLv34

So when do we get our Hollow charge rounds

 
BigRat