Author Topic: Bf-110c  (Read 3258 times)

Offline Reaper90

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Re: Bf-110c
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2011, 11:15:32 AM »
110C can surprise some

exacly

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but let's not go calling it "uber" and "can own any plane in the game" and so forth.

no one has even hinted at that, not in this thread

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AI have flown it in the LWA many times, in an attempt to catch people unawares... If you can get into a flat turn, you have a chance. Getting TO that point is what kills you. Over and over. You have no pilot armor on your glass canopy. You have a slow acceleration and slow climb rate. Your roll rate isn't stellar... If you start out behind somebody you have a good chance of finishing them off.... until the 3 others pick you off, that is.

Overall in the LWA environment the 110C can be a fun challenge, but you'll spend more time getting to and from the fight, figthing smart, and avoiding nasty situations, than you will getting kills.

I've had the most fun in it when the fights are close to our base, and when it's not a horde coming in but 3-5 cons, and we have roughly equal numbers defending. But it does attract bad guys like flies.
Floyd
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Bf-110c
« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2011, 01:29:56 PM »
The Germans overclaimed by more than three to one in those months, you know.

Bomber crews on both sides were notorious for over-claiming kills (for many understandable reasons mind you). I don't think the fighter pilots over-claimed nearly that much.
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Offline Karnak

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Re: Bf-110c
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2011, 01:37:34 PM »
Bomber crews on both sides were notorious for over-claiming kills (for many understandable reasons mind you). I don't think the fighter pilots over-claimed nearly that much.
As the Battle of Britain progressed German kill claims got further and further from reality.  It was not just the bombers doing it either.  Frankly, given the armaments of the bombers they'd have to to have been nuts to believe it if the claims were from the bombers, but the Luftwaffe did believe the kill claims and thought the RAF was down to "its last 50 Spitfires".
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Bf-110c
« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2011, 01:42:42 PM »
Also, I've never understood the "number crunchers" who insists on every kill needs to be accounted for as a loss on the other side. The were many German aerial victories that ended with a ditched Spitfire in a field with the pilot ok and air frame repairable. A few weeks later that same Spit was up again fighting the Luftwaffe. It's still a victory for the German pilot and it would not be recorded as a loss for RAF.
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Bf-110c
« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2011, 01:53:17 PM »
As the Battle of Britain progressed German kill claims got further and further from reality.  It was not just the bombers doing it either.  Frankly, given the armaments of the bombers they'd have to to have been nuts to believe it if the claims were from the bombers, but the Luftwaffe did believe the kill claims and thought the RAF was down to "its last 50 Spitfires".

That's due more to bad intelligence on the German side. While the Germans had to send their aircraft to Germany to be repaired, the British were extremely efficient in salvaging and repairing damaged aircraft. Airframes the the Luftwaffe would have scrapped were shipped to the Civilian Repair Organisation, which managed to repair 4196 aircraft between July and December. 60% of aircraft believed to be unrepairable at the aircraft stations were rebuilt, with the contributions of organisations such as British Railways and London Transport. The GErmans would quite understandably believe these aircraft destroyed.
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Offline Karnak

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Re: Bf-110c
« Reply #20 on: October 30, 2011, 03:33:50 PM »
Also, I've never understood the "number crunchers" who insists on every kill needs to be accounted for as a loss on the other side. The were many German aerial victories that ended with a ditched Spitfire in a field with the pilot ok and air frame repairable. A few weeks later that same Spit was up again fighting the Luftwaffe. It's still a victory for the German pilot and it would not be recorded as a loss for RAF.
I'd argue that, from a military perspective, that was not a kill.
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Offline kilo2

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Re: Bf-110c
« Reply #21 on: October 30, 2011, 03:40:52 PM »
I'd argue that, from a military perspective, that was not a kill.

Yeah but the LW pilot wouldn't know any different to him it was a kill.
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Offline Karnak

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Re: Bf-110c
« Reply #22 on: October 30, 2011, 03:48:34 PM »
Yeah but the LW pilot wouldn't know any different to him it was a kill.
Somehow the Finnish pilots managed to not overclaim.  The Russians recorded more losses to the Finns than the Finns recorded kills.  I think you're making excuses for the horrible accuracy of German kill claims in the Battle of Britain.

Yes, B-17 and B-24 gunners overclaimed at a rate of about 10 to 1, but high command knew the claims were BS, letting them stand for morale reasons.  They didn't make operational plans based on those claims.
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Offline kilo2

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Re: Bf-110c
« Reply #23 on: October 30, 2011, 04:01:17 PM »
Somehow the Finnish pilots managed to not overclaim.  The Russians recorded more losses to the Finns than the Finns recorded kills.  I think you're making excuses for the horrible accuracy of German kill claims in the Battle of Britain.

Yes, B-17 and B-24 gunners overclaimed at a rate of about 10 to 1, but high command knew the claims were BS, letting them stand for morale reasons.  They didn't make operational plans based on those claims.

I was talking about that one scenario predator used. In that instance the LW pilot probably didn't even see the spitfire ditch. I don't know why they over claimed or even if there is truth to that statement.










« Last Edit: October 30, 2011, 04:09:50 PM by kilo2 »
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Offline Brooke

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Re: Bf-110c
« Reply #24 on: October 30, 2011, 04:20:20 PM »
110C's in the Battle of Britain scenario are quite good if they are flown to their strengths, which is not escort flying along 200 yards from the bombers at the same speed as the bombers.  If they hang out way over the top of the bombers and use their speed to get in on attackers and climb to get back up to their perch, they can be quite dangerous.  I wonder if their performance in the real Battle of Britain had to do with how they were used.

Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Bf-110c
« Reply #25 on: October 30, 2011, 04:48:15 PM »
Karnak, the issue is the 110C's performance in the Battle of Britain, not the state of damage of the defeated RAF fighters in question or the strategic impact etc. We all know the Jerries lost and that they way overestimated the RAF casualties. An aerial victory is an aerial victory if the enemy is a smoking hole in the ground or pouring smoke from the oil radiator and diving away to an uncertain fate. Whether that should count as a painted mark on the tail is not important in this context.
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Bf-110c
« Reply #26 on: October 30, 2011, 05:15:21 PM »
If we advance one year in the war to 1941 the situation was reversed. Now the RAF are conducting aggressive fighter sweeps over France and the Channel attempting to relieve the Soviets by keeping the pressure up on the Luftwaffe in the west. During the period of June to December the RAF claimed 711 Luftwaffe fighters shot down, while losing 411 of its own fighters. Losses according to Luftwaffe records were reportedly just 103 fighters. Should we then conclude that the German fighters were vastly superior to the British with a 4:1 kill ratio? Of course not. The Germans were simply enjoying the same advantage as the RAF did a year earlier in that crippling damage didn't necessarily mean certain destruction when fighting over friendly territory. I'm quite sure that the RAF actually won more or less 700 victories in the air.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2011, 05:17:42 PM by PR3D4TOR »
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Offline Krusty

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Re: Bf-110c
« Reply #27 on: October 30, 2011, 10:57:32 PM »
no one has even hinted at that, not in this thread

See JUGgler's post a few above mine.

Offline Karnak

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Re: Bf-110c
« Reply #28 on: October 30, 2011, 11:08:49 PM »
110C's in the Battle of Britain scenario are quite good if they are flown to their strengths, which is not escort flying along 200 yards from the bombers at the same speed as the bombers.  If they hang out way over the top of the bombers and use their speed to get in on attackers and climb to get back up to their perch, they can be quite dangerous.  I wonder if their performance in the real Battle of Britain had to do with how they were used.
So far as I have read, no.  The Bf110s did very poorly even before Goering issued the close escort order.  The problem with being above like you describe relies on no Spitfires or Hurricanes showing up near, or above, your altitude.

Anecdotal, but Bob Doe, who considered himself the worst pilot in his squadron and was sure he was going to die on his first combat sortie, shot two Bf110s down on that first combat sortie, including the one that dove on his Spitfire.


PR3D4TOR,

When somebody uses the kills claimed vs 110s lost as evidence of how good they were, the veracity of those claims becomes important.

The fact is, deny it though you may, the Bf110 was not a match for the Spitfire or Hurricane.  It was not a match for the D.520 either.  It did well until it met fighters that were as modern as it was, then it did poorly.
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Offline Reaper90

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Re: Bf-110c
« Reply #29 on: October 31, 2011, 02:04:48 AM »
See JUGgler's post a few above mine.

He said "it's a sleeper and can pwn most that underestimate it."

What he said and what you say he said are two totally different things.
Floyd
'Murican dude in a Brit Squad flying Russian birds, drinking Canadian whiskey