109 flap deployment speed

[Krusty]

I have to agree there. Especially after reading in the other thread where there was a slip gear so turning the wheel did nothing above a certain speed due to excess pressure.

More than likely he was trimming the stabs so that if he compressed he could nose back up to slow down.

[gyrene81]

I have to agree there. Especially after reading in the other thread where there was a slip gear so turning the wheel did nothing above a certain speed due to excess pressure.

More than likely he was trimming the stabs so that if he compressed he could nose back up to slow down.

the finnish pilots referred to the trim wheel as the "flettner" and that's what most of them remember using...only 1 or 2 pilots talked about using flaps for dive recovery, which i chalk up to a misinterpretation. as for the slip gear on the flap wheel, there is zero documentation regarding such a device.


and, fls it's not 30 cranks, it's only 12-15 from zero to full deploy...been a while since i watched the video.

[MiloMorai]

I remember an old discussion on the 109 flaps. It was 8 complete 360* rotations of the wheel from full up to full down. So yes it could take up to 30 'cranks' on the wheel from full up to full down.

[gyrene81]

I remember an old discussion on the 109 flaps. It was 8 complete 360* rotations of the wheel from full up to full down. So yes it could take up to 30 'cranks' on the wheel from full up to full down.

or 16 180 degree turns...the only way 30 would occur is if the pilot was only doing 1/4 turns of the wheel. conceivable if the pilot was panicking or unfamiliar with the aircraft.

[FLS]

or 16 180 degree turns...the only way 30 would occur is if the pilot was only doing 1/4 turns of the wheel. conceivable if the pilot was panicking or unfamiliar with the aircraft.

If you look at the video posted earlier in this thread the flap wheel is cranked, i.e. an arm uses a reciprocating motion to impart a rotation to the flap wheel, 30 times from full down to up. It appears to be 22 from full up to down.

I'm not seeing how the person in the video could have done more than quarter turns.

[STEELE]

Page 11 of the 109G6 pilot's handbook says "Flug bei voll angestellten Landeklappen" ("Flight with fully employed landing flaps") 250 kph (155 mph).

On the same page: "Flug mit ausgefahrenem Fahrwerk" ("Flight with deployed landing gear") 350 kph (217 mph).

Full flaps on the 109G was 40 degrees. For take-off they were set to 20 degrees. Combat setting was up to 10 degrees.





I assume it is this document that is in question:



(Image removed from quote.)

I believe that's the one!  Good find!  Like I said, 450 kph or 280 mph 20 degrees of flaps allowed!  Ten degrees allowed way over 500kph!  Now what??  

I think you're the only one making this a double standard, especially with your previous comment about how you think the reason this isn't done is a HTC-wide conspiracy to keep the LW planes nerfed so they can't "compete" with US rides...

Conspiracy?? Sorry, no.  I have however, seen a few threads where you point out oddities in Luft FM's, 152 thread ring a bell?  I didn't disagree with you on many,if any, of them. (for the record)  
Now can you honestly say that you think 190 mph speed limit on flap usage for 109 is correct? (look at the chart supplied by PRED4TOR, for one thing)  In fact, 10 degrees of combat flaps is allowed at 750kph!!
  You can see where one could throw in a couple  's here & there, no?

[Krusty]

I find it funny the comment about conspiracy... If there is anything wrong with any given plane in this game it is isolated to that plane's modeling and only that plane. It isn't a grander design to nerf one side over the other. A flaw in a Fw190 is simply that, a flaw in the Fw190. It doesn't hint at any ulterior motives.

On this topic, I would question the diagram posted. It could possibly be telling mechanical stresses, the tolerance the flaps have before being destroyed, rather than actual policy (i.e. "you may deploy flaps to turn tightly").

I think overall there was almost no use of "combat flaps" in Bf109s throughout the war. I've heard of some tales specifically citing a Bf109 with flaps down, but all were slow speeds, preventing a stall. Manual flaps is simply a bad idea for a modern fighter design. Of all the modern parts of the Bf108 and Bf109, I have no idea why they left this with such an old fashioned chain-and-gear system.

I think the fascination and drive to prove there WAS massively widespread use of the flaps on bf109s is only from flight sim fans in the past 10+ years or so (Ubi, AH, and other fans, not specific to any one game) to get more performance for their favored ride in a game, rather than to prove any historical usefulness. I'm not picking at anybody on these forums, I am talking overall and in general. I've noticed some similar sentiments on other forums, discussion forums, and generally there's an element (big or small) of flight sim gaming and definite bias towards LW planes in "game X" for the people advocating this particular thought. Again, just what I think. Take it or leave it.

[Ruah]

if you use flaps in a 190 rather then the roll and the vert the you are already dead.

Use instantaneous turn, roll up and around, and cut the turn or extend.  The moment you deploy flaps, except in the vert kill shot, you are blowing all your e, which is the same as death.

[Krusty]

For a 190, yes. But my comment about a 190 was just an example, the thread in general is about the bf109

[Ardy123]

I find it funny the comment about conspiracy... If there is anything wrong with any given plane in this game it is isolated to that plane's modeling and only that plane. It isn't a grander design to nerf one side over the other. A flaw in a Fw190 is simply that, a flaw in the Fw190. It doesn't hint at any ulterior motives.

On this topic, I would question the diagram posted. It could possibly be telling mechanical stresses, the tolerance the flaps have before being destroyed, rather than actual policy (i.e. "you may deploy flaps to turn tightly").

I think overall there was almost no use of "combat flaps" in Bf109s throughout the war. I've heard of some tales specifically citing a Bf109 with flaps down, but all were slow speeds, preventing a stall. Manual flaps is simply a bad idea for a modern fighter design. Of all the modern parts of the Bf108 and Bf109, I have no idea why they left this with such an old fashioned chain-and-gear system.

I think the fascination and drive to prove there WAS massively widespread use of the flaps on bf109s is only from flight sim fans in the past 10+ years or so (Ubi, AH, and other fans, not specific to any one game) to get more performance for their favored ride in a game, rather than to prove any historical usefulness. I'm not picking at anybody on these forums, I am talking overall and in general. I've noticed some similar sentiments on other forums, discussion forums, and generally there's an element (big or small) of flight sim gaming and definite bias towards LW planes in "game X" for the people advocating this particular thought. Again, just what I think. Take it or leave it.

I remember reading or watching a video somewhere were a luft pilot did claim they used one notch of flaps to improve their turn in the 109.

[PR3D4TOR]

Using flaps in a dive:

"So it happened that the devil fired at him. One cannon round hit his engine, spilling out oil that caught fire. Estama noticed that it wasn't fuel that leaked or burned, just oil.
He pushed the nose of the plane and throttled up. His feet felt hot, but the fire was extinguished and there was no more smoke. The speedometer went over the top as the speed exceeded 950 km/h. The wings began to shake and Estama feared the fighter would come apart. He pulled the throttle back, but the stick was stiff and couldn't pull the plane out of the dive. Letting the flaps out little by little gradually lifted the nose. The plane leveled at 1,000 meters (3,300').
Clarification of the escape dive: "It didn't stay (vertical) otherwise, it had to be kept with the stabilizer. I trimmed it so the plane was certainly nose down. Once I felt it didn't burn anymore and there was no black smoke in the mirror, then I began to straighten it up, and it wouldn't obey. The stick was so stiff it was useless. So a nudge at a time, (then straightening off with trims).
Then the wings came alive with the flutter effect, I was afraid it's coming apart and shut the throttle. Only then I began to level out. To a thousand meters. It was a long time - and the hard pull blacked me out."

- Edvald Estama, Finnish fighter pilot. Source: Recollections by Eino and Edvald Estama by Finnish Virtual Pilots Association.



Using flaps in combat:

"- Did pilots like the slats on the wings of the 109?
Yes, pilots did like them, since it allowed them better positions in dogfights along with using the flaps. These slats would also deploy slightly when the a/c was reaching stall at higher altitudes showing the pilot how close they were to stalling.....this was also useful when you were drunk "

- Franz Stigler, German fighter ace. 28 victories. Source: Interview of Franz Stigler.

[gyrene81]

If you look at the video posted earlier in this thread the flap wheel is cranked, i.e. an arm uses a reciprocating motion to impart a rotation to the flap wheel, 30 times from full down to up. It appears to be 22 from full up to down.

I'm not seeing how the person in the video could have done more than quarter turns.

check the video again...22 turns of less than 180 degrees each, to full down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcMjhihuuX8


and as much as want higher speed flap useage on the 109s, with a lack of historical documentation stating specific speeds for useage other than what the pilot manual shows, it's pointless to argue about it.

[EagleDNY]

Frankly, I hate auto-flap retraction.  I think they should stay out, and if you exceed the maximum speed then they should take damage. 

[Stoney]

check the video again...22 turns of less than 180 degrees each, to full down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcMjhihuuX8


and as much as want higher speed flap useage on the 109s, with a lack of historical documentation stating specific speeds for useage other than what the pilot manual shows, it's pointless to argue about it.

Either way, a bit of a heavy job if the flap wheel is mechanically linked to the control surface.  Trim tabs even, at very high speeds, get extremely stiff.  I'd guess, that unless there's some sort of assist from pulleys or something, that the flap wheel would be very stiff at speed.  How stiff?  Who knows...

[gyrene81]

i don't think so stoney but then, without any time in a 109 cockpit we're all guessing...

flap and aileron linkage diagram from a 109k4 maintenance manual...