109 flap deployment speed

[FLS]

...It appears to be 22 from full up to down.

check the video again...22 turns of less than 180 degrees each, to full down.

Gyrene anything jump out at you from these two quotes?

[gyrene81]

Gyrene anything jump out at you from these two quotes?

      oh yeah...i was looking at the number 30 again. don't do that... 

[Stoney]

i don't think so stoney but then, without any time in a 109 cockpit we're all guessing...

flap and aileron linkage diagram from a 109k4 maintenance manual...
(Image removed from quote.)

I'm sure that's not all at scale, but my point was merely that unless there was some sort of 3:1 ratio or something, it could be pretty stiff at speed.  On my Grumman, the back 1/3rd of the right elevator worked as the pitch trim.  If I was doing 150mph +, it was tons stiffer than when i was in the pattern at 85mph.  In the pattern, it was pretty mushy, so that introducing three or four turns (each which amounted to maybe 1/5th the circumference of the wheel) was easy to do.  At speed, it took considerable effort to make small changes with one hand.  That was with basically a 1:1 ratio on the cable gears.  The bellcranks don't assist any, so, I'd assume that what we see in that video, with the plane stationary, becomes a little more of a job at 150mph +.  Again, all speculation.  Be interesting if anyone with warbird experience (on planes with a flap extension wheel) could chime in.

[PR3D4TOR]

Look at part no 12. It's a jackscrew.

[colmbo]

I'm with you Stoney.  Any manual system on a control surface/tab is going to increase in load as the speed goes up (with the exception of servo tabs).  On any airplane I've flown (Cessna to T6 to Mustang to B17 or B24) as the speeds increased the trim tabs become "stiffer".

On the Cessna's I've flown that have manual flaps there is a huge increase in load as the speed goes up.  In the Cessna you have a handle about 22-26 inches long that gives a fair amount of leverage...at the max flap speed of 100mph it takes a very firm pull to get the flaps past 20 degrees. (Even had the flap cable structure come apart one day ending up with asymetric flaps -- there is a lot of load on the system).

The wheel in the 109 is much shorter than the flap lever in a Cessna, the 109 pilot wouldn't have as much mechanical advantage (at the handle/wheel end) as the Cessna pilot (and the 109 is going to be at much higher speeds than the Cessna).  If the 109 system was geared to provide some mechanical advantage it is going to slow the rate at which the flaps extend/retract.

The 109 should be modeled with the correct flap extension speed (whatever it is).  The trick will be working out just how fast the flaps should extend or retract, then coding that into the FM.

I know a guy that knows a guy that flew 109Es and 163s.  I'll ask him to ask him.

[EagleDNY]

Look at part no 12. It's a jackscrew.

Oh yeah - there is plenty of mechanical advantage built in there.  The flap extension speed can't be all that fast, but it damn sure will happen according to that diagram.  You got enough advantage there to jack up a car. 

With a system like that, the flaps are definitely coming down - and there is no auto-retraction.  The point of failure looks to be #10 - I suppose if you had the flaps down with too much stress you would break that bit of linkage and have the flap hanging loose. 

[Stoney]

Look at part no 12. It's a jackscrew.

Whoops...got my push-rods crossed and didn't see that.  Still, that would mean that a turn of the wheel would equal a smaller amount of flap movement, right?

[PR3D4TOR]

Much smaller. It takes several complete revolutions (about 7?) of the wheel to make the flaps move 40 degrees. So that's 7x360/40= about 60:1 gear ratio.

[STEELE]

Much smaller. It takes several complete revolutions (about 7?) of the wheel to make the flaps move 40 degrees. So that's 7x360/40= about 60:1 gear ratio.

Which is cool to know, and stuff, but all flaps in AH move at the same speed , (about)
and that makes it a lot less complicated.  Same with notches versus infinite adjustability which a lot of planes had .
 The 109 should be able to deploy 20 degrees of flap at 280 mph, and 10 degrees of flap up to almost 400, (similar to Jug and Pony)
If this is correctied, 109 will not suffer as much turn loss at about 400 mph (when compressability starts) because we will be able to deploy 10 degrees flap.
This may scare Pony and Jug drivers, but,  whatcha gonna do?   

[Stoney]

The 109 should be able to deploy 20 degrees of flap at 280 mph, and 10 degrees of flap up to almost 400, (similar to Jug and Pony)

And when you say "should", you're source is???

[FLS]

...If this is correctied, 109 will not suffer as much turn loss at about 400 mph (when compressability starts) because we will be able to deploy 10 degrees flap.
...

What turn loss? What do you think 10 degrees of flaps at 400 will do for you?

[gyrene81]

The 109 should be able to deploy 20 degrees of flap at 280 mph, and 10 degrees of flap up to almost 400, (similar to Jug and Pony)
If this is correctied, 109 will not suffer as much turn loss at about 400 mph (when compressability starts) because we will be able to deploy 10 degrees flap.
This may scare Pony and Jug drivers, but,  whatcha gonna do?   

whoa steele, where are you getting that information? don't just go by that chart (allowable speed according to flap deflection)  without the rest of the document, i already know what will happen because it's been presented as evidence before.

[Krusty]

If a 109 is flying at 400mph and you want to lower flaps, you're doing it wrong. I'm sorry. It won't "scare" anything, other than how it already does. You're acting like the plane is horrifically hobbled as-is in Aces High, Steele, and that's just not the case.

[mthrockmor]

Bit of a tangent but I now understand why some in our community our miffed at pilots who have the trim tab programmed to a button on their joy stick. In real life you would have to stop what you are doing and turn a wheel a few times to gain the added turning benefit of the trim tabs. In this game, push a button. It is a form of "cheating" I suppose. All making sense to me now.

I swear, it's like reading a bunch of engineers. Good stuff.

Boo

[PR3D4TOR]

It was common among experienced 109 pilots to trim the plane tail-heavy (nose-light) before combat to make pulling G's at high speed easier. However, it meant flying with a constant forward pressure on the stick to keep level flight.