Author Topic: Puffy Ack Thoughts?  (Read 2007 times)

Offline B4Buster

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Re: Puffy Ack Thoughts?
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2011, 11:59:18 AM »
Baumer, I think that is a pretty good idea.

My biggest complaint with puffy is a CV can be parked a mile off shore, and auto puffy can blast away at the defenders as soon as they pop over 3,000'. I think the altitude puffy kicks in at should be a wee bit higher, that way if players want to use puffy against upping aircraft, they need to man the guns.
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Offline RipRap

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Re: Puffy Ack Thoughts?
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2011, 12:40:34 PM »
Baumer, I think that is a pretty good idea.

My biggest complaint with puffy is a CV can be parked a mile off shore, and auto puffy can blast away at the defenders as soon as they pop over 3,000'. I think the altitude puffy kicks in at should be a wee bit higher, that way if players want to use puffy against upping aircraft, they need to man the guns.
                                                         
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Offline 715

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Re: Puffy Ack Thoughts?
« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2011, 01:15:08 PM »
I really don't understand peoples attitude about puffy ack.  My experience has been 100% the opposite.  In fact, the only time I have been killed by puffy ack it was my own ack (I was following an enemy attacking our CV).  But, certainly, go ahead and completely remove it.  It is utterly useless at its job of defending CV groups from bombers. I have watched many many bombers attacking CVs, mostly level, and while the manned puffy can occasionally kill the bombers before they sink the CV, usually only if they are low, I have never seen the AI puffy kill any bombers before they sink the CV... not once.  Removing puffy ack will not change the survival rate of CVs one iota...  it will remain 0%.

Offline B4Buster

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Re: Puffy Ack Thoughts?
« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2011, 01:55:11 PM »
715, I disagree a bit. It's pretty effective against single engine bomb slingers. Heavy/medium bombers, I would agree with your statement more.
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Offline Crash Orange

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Re: Puffy Ack Thoughts?
« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2011, 02:21:00 PM »
All planes are target the same regardless of size.

And that's the problem. With puffy ack being random inside a box that is much larger than the plane, if plane A is 4 times larger than plane B, it should take 4 times as many hits on average. A plane that has 4 engines should average 4 times as many engine hits as a plane with 1 engine.

Try this out at the shooting range with birdshot and plane silhouettes on paper. A scale Lanc will have a lot more pellets hitting it than a scale Spit.

Also, the lethality of the ack should vary with the number and type of ships remaining in the task group - a CV with no escorts should be vulnerable, that's why they had them!

Offline TnDep

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Re: Puffy Ack Thoughts?
« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2011, 03:52:18 PM »
I think the only problem with puffy ack is its accuracy. One sortie I'm helping defending a base from a CV and making sure I stay below 3,000ft. I get in a fight with an F4U and accidentally climb over 3K for just 2 seconds, but in that 2 seconds I lose half my plane to the first two puffy shots.

I got hit twice by our own puffy ack today, didn't kill me but could hear the damage sound it was a close call
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Offline AWwrgwy

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Re: Puffy Ack Thoughts?
« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2011, 04:40:52 PM »
And that's the problem. With puffy ack being random inside a box that is much larger than the plane, if plane A is 4 times larger than plane B, it should take 4 times as many hits on average. A plane that has 4 engines should average 4 times as many engine hits as a plane with 1 engine.

Try this out at the shooting range with birdshot and plane silhouettes on paper. A scale Lanc will have a lot more pellets hitting it than a scale Spit.

Also, the lethality of the ack should vary with the number and type of ships remaining in the task group - a CV with no escorts should be vulnerable, that's why they had them!

Why would the number of engines determine the number of hits? In both cases the AAA is shooting at a single aircraft. As stated above, the size of the aircraft is not a variable.

Now, take your example and turn it around. A Lanc should be able to take X times more hits than a Spit before damage is done.

It all makes sense now, doesn't it?

Quote
25Mar45-21Jun45. Off Okinawa -- Ten "Kikusui", swarms of Kamikaze, up to 350 attackers at a time, 1,900 in total, damaged 250 ships with 34 destroyers and smaller ships sunk.

Assuming one plane per damaged ship, 1650 kamakazis shot down.

86%.

Puffy ack.



wrongway
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Offline TnDep

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Re: Puffy Ack Thoughts?
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2011, 05:18:19 PM »
Why would the number of engines determine the number of hits? In both cases the AAA is shooting at a single aircraft. As stated above, the size of the aircraft is not a variable.

Now, take your example and turn it around. A Lanc should be able to take X times more hits than a Spit before damage is done.

It all makes sense now, doesn't it?

Assuming one plane per damaged ship, 1650 kamakazis shot down.

86%.

Puffy ack.



wrongway


I think he is saying this in a box model if 7 ack rds say for example fire in the box, the chances of getting hit in the fighter box is awhole lot more lethal

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Offline SPKmes

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Re: Puffy Ack Thoughts?
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2011, 05:39:28 PM »
MMMMmmmmmm   look at all this scrap metal coming my way

Forget those bombers...there's a jet...hehehe...he's gonna lose his peerrks 

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Offline Crash Orange

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Re: Puffy Ack Thoughts?
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2011, 06:10:10 PM »
Why would the number of engines determine the number of hits? In both cases the AAA is shooting at a single aircraft.

Because 4 engines give you roughly 4 times the target area (for engine hits) as 1 engine. Whether they are attached to 1 plane or 4 planes is irrelevant in this context. Each engine will average about the same number of hits, so the four engines taken together will average 4 times the hits of the 1 engine.

Try it. With arrows or darts if you don't have a shotgun, or dropping a bunch of pennies or pebbles or other small objects from eye level onto the floor, anything that gives a random distribution of hits. Because the shots are randomly distributed within the target area (the "box"), an object that takes up X times as much space inside the target area will average X times as many hits.

This is different from air-to-air gunnery, where you're trying to put a concentrated stream of bullets into a single spot. With puffy ack, even with proximity fuses, you aren't trying to hit the target with the shell, you are filling a volume of space with lots and lots of randomly distributed little pellets or shell fragments and hoping enough of them hit to disable the target, which is effectively like shooting a shotgun at an object that is much smaller than the shot pattern. A good ack shell, like a good shotgun, will give you a more even distribution, but it is still random.

What you're saying - it's only shooting at a single aircraft - is like saying you should get the same number of hits whether you're shooting at a basketball or a golf ball, because either way you're just shooting at a single ball.

As stated above, the size of the aircraft is not a variable.

Exactly. In the game it's not a variable, but in anything remotely based on the laws of physics in the real world it should be a variable. Saying the size of a target is irrelevant to the number of hits you should expect to get on it is nonsensical.

Now, take your example and turn it around. A Lanc should be able to take X times more hits than a Spit before damage is done.

Right. The Lanc should take X times as many hits to kill, but it gets hit X times as much, so puffy ack should be at least as lethal against a Lanc as a Spit if they're both flying straight & level. As it stands, puffy ack is X times as lethal against a Spit as against a Lanc, which is wrong. I've had the same experience as everyone else is relating, I've bombed CV groups hundreds of times in buff formations and it's rare that I lose a bomber to puffy ack, and almost never before dropping, but to fighters it's deadly.

Again, this is not like air-to-air gunnery, where your burst either hits or misses and contains the same number of bullets and shells, and thus gives you roughly the same number of hits, if you hit at all, whether you're shooting at a Lanc or a Spit.

It all makes sense now, doesn't it?

It made sense before.

TnDep, your diagram isn't how it works. The box is the same size for every plane, with the same number of pellets in it, but the Lanc takes up more of the box than the Spit does, so more of the pellets will land in space taken up by the Lanc. (I won't try to draw that in ASCII art though.)

Offline BaldEagl

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Re: Puffy Ack Thoughts?
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2011, 06:46:01 PM »
I'll turn this around for a moment.  I like playing CV gunner a fair amount and I can kill most fighters while sitting in a 5" gun relatively easily.  At the same time I can probably count the number of bombers I've killed on my fingers and toes.

I guess the way it is it keeps most of the dive bombing fighters away but if it didn't it would make playing the 20's and quad 40's a lot more fun.  At this point they're pretty much useless because the fighters get killed by the 5"ers while out of range and they can't reach the buffs.
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Offline Babalonian

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Re: Puffy Ack Thoughts?
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2011, 07:06:46 PM »
it's not only enemy puffy ack that is the issue. 

I've been toasted 3 times by my own this month   :ahand

Stop dragging us into your carrier ack, and we'll resolve that friendly fire downing you issue most eagerly and promptly, good sir.
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Offline colmbo

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Re: Puffy Ack Thoughts?
« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2011, 08:28:15 PM »

The
This is incorrect, the closet plane is targeted.

HiTech

Ok...you should know...but.  On more than one occasion near an enemy CV I'll have a low furball between me and the CV...and I'll be surrounded by ack burst but don't see any around the furball. What's up with that?
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Offline Baumer

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Re: Puffy Ack Thoughts?
« Reply #28 on: November 14, 2011, 09:20:10 PM »
Well I'll be filming all my sorties for a while because I thought I've seen the same thing. It could just be due to my poor SA that I don't see the Ack properly.   :)
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Offline AWwrgwy

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Re: Puffy Ack Thoughts?
« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2011, 12:23:04 AM »
Ok...you should know...but.  On more than one occasion near an enemy CV I'll have a low furball between me and the CV...and I'll be surrounded by ack burst but don't see any around the furball. What's up with that?

Low furball. They're probably below 3k feet. You are probably the closest target above.

Because 4 engines give you roughly 4 times the target area (for engine hits) as 1 engine. Whether they are attached to 1 plane or 4 planes is irrelevant in this context. Each engine will average about the same number of hits, so the four engines taken together will average 4 times the hits of the 1 engine.

This:

all planes are target the same regardless of size
variables are speed, range and acceleration (in all directions).             

HiTech

Quote
The Lanc should take X times as many hits to kill, but it gets hit X times as much, so puffy ack should be at least as lethal against a Lanc as a Spit if they're both flying straight & level. As it stands, puffy ack is X times as lethal against a Spit as against a Lanc, which is wrong. I've had the same experience as everyone else is relating, I've bombed CV groups hundreds of times in buff formations and it's rare that I lose a bomber to puffy ack, and almost never before dropping, but to fighters it's deadly.

But the chance of getting hit as it is coaded is the same. A plane is a plane. The damage taken per hit is the same. Fighters just have the ability to take less damage.

Most of the time I've been shot down by puffy ack, other than the "magic bullet", is by the manned variety. I really haven't noticed a difference in frequency of hits from being in a fighter or a bomber. It's just that getting hit while in a fighter is more lethal.

One also tends not to linger in the ack in a bomber as much. In and out. Get the job done, versus around and around chasing someone while in a fighter.


wrongway
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"THAT"S PAINT!!"

"If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through."
- General Sir Anthony Cecil Hogmanay