Author Topic: CVs groups need tweaking. My ideas.  (Read 1128 times)

Offline Vinkman

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CVs groups need tweaking. My ideas.
« on: November 15, 2011, 10:02:37 AM »
Carrier groups in general stink and are bad for game play. I try to avoid them.

I will explain why I think they stink, then how to fix them.  :salute

1) The ballance of artillary fire power vs land bases is complete ridiculous.
               Shore batteries can't articulate enough to even hit the cv when it's right off shore in many cases.
               Shore batteries only have one 8" very slow firing gun can that can hit a CV group at a time.
               The CV group has 1 bazzillion 5" rapid fire artillary guns on it, that go from AAA to HE with the flick of a switch
               The CV group has 9X the 8" firepower of a land base.
               The 8" tripples are auto-leveled, and have computer controlled auto-aiming so they can hit the same spot repeatedly while steaming along at flank speed.

2) The ballance of AAA fire is completely ridiculous
               The AAA from a CV group can cap an enemy field
               The AAA from a field does nothing to the CV group
               Hyper-Telescopic bore sites, radar proximity fuses, and rapid fire capability make the 5" guns too lethal against fighters at all ranges.
               The land bases have no mannable 5" Artillary
               The land bases have no Computer controlled Puffy.


4) The power of the few vs the many.

               A CV group with two or three people is an overwhelming force
               It takes a hoarde to successfully defend against a CV group because of all it's AI controlled guns, and the lethality of a couple of individuals in manned guns.
               A.I. and manned guns make CVs so lethal, planes taking off are not even required to destroy a base and rack up lots of kills when attacking an airfield.
               My estimate is for every person active on a CV group, it takes 3-5 defenders.  So it requires 15 base defenders to fight off 5 people on a CV group

CV groups stink for game play because they draw lambs to the slaughter. The game is stacked to make the CV group very lethal against attacking aircraft. But Bases are not given anything capable of defending itself against a CV except aircraft. Leading to a fultile effort unless you amass a hoarde of defenders who all die repeatedly untill they sink the whole fleet only to find out it was manned by a total of 3 people who never even get a death recorded because deaths in manned guns get a free pass. And if fighters do up fro the carrier, the fight is ruined by all that AAA, manned and computer generated, that is picking planes out of the sky like they were free shrimp a buffet.

How to fix it:

1) Put more shore batteries in, or add lots 8" field artillary, or Add a mobile Howitzer to the VH
               Mobile artillary in the 5" range. [Mobile artillary would be easier than changing all the maps to add the fixed guns]
               That will create a stand off distance for CV groups.  
               This will also solve the AAA problem by forcing the CV out far enough where its AAA can't cap the field

2) Deactivate the zoom on 5" guns in AA mode.

3) Deactivate the computer controlled aiming of the 8" tripples on the cruiser.
                If you want to bombard the field. Park the CV group, aim your guns and get a plane spotter to tell you where your shells are landing.
                This will make the CV a bit more vulnerable to Torpedo attacks from Pt boats or SBDs, making the effort to attack a CV with those planes worth it.

4) Track and keep score of Deaths in Manned guns.
                No one should be get reward without risk.

Thanks for listening :salute

« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 11:13:24 AM by Vinkman »
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Offline matt

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Re: CVs groups need tweaking. My ideas.
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2011, 10:51:17 AM »
 :noid

Offline Vinkman

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Re: CVs groups need tweaking. My ideas.
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2011, 10:55:12 AM »
:noid

does it read like a consiracy theory? Hmm, didn't mean it that way.  :salute
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Offline Debrody

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Re: CVs groups need tweaking. My ideas.
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2011, 10:57:49 AM »
IMO the problem isnt as dramatic as you described.
Still, it can be pretty much annoying (manawars...). Also like 5 people can can a base with the auto pufy over 3k: enough for them to stay over there, their interception will became nearly inpossible, the 3000 1/2 feet instant deaths just ridiculous. Not as common, but happens with me in every cv battle.
I can agree with your second and fourth point.
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Offline SectorNine50

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Re: CVs groups need tweaking. My ideas.
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2011, 11:50:17 AM »
I think a simpler solution would just be to make it so the carrier group can't get so close to the shore line.  Although, that would be a bummer for LVT's.

I wouldn't mind seeing the AA rounds in the manned 5" guns going away.  It's always annoying getting popped by a 5" gun when in a knife fight on the deck when you are well outside AAA range and way below puffy altitude.  However, perhaps you are right, removing the zoom on the 5" guns might be enough to solve that problem.

Did they ever actually completely stop a CV group even when firing in real life?  Seems like they would just compensate for the speed with negative lead rather than make the fleet that vulnerable.  I also wouldn't be surprised if the "target hold" feature we see in this game was possible back then with some math to find out the rad/sec required to hold that point while moving.

I always thought defending CV attacks was fairly easy, if you caught them early enough (which is true for most things in this game as it stands).  Plus, you always get someone who will bomb them with Lancs, and that ends the CV's reign rather abruptly.  I guess I don't see the CV's as unbalancing, sometimes you get very successful CV raids, other times they are a bust the second they appear off-shore.
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Offline fuzeman

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Re: CVs groups need tweaking. My ideas.
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2011, 12:42:08 PM »
According to the little text blurbs when loading, shore batteries are 5" guns.
IMO its easier to hit a TG from a SB than vice versa. You do have manual, land and sea modes from SBs.
Far too many, if not most, people on this Board post just to say something opposed to posting when they have something to say.

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Offline Vinkman

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Re: CVs groups need tweaking. My ideas.
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2011, 01:00:14 PM »
According to the little text blurbs when loading, shore batteries are 5" guns.
IMO its easier to hit a TG from a SB than vice versa. You do have manual, land and sea modes from SBs.

Yes I think you're right. Even worse.  :aok

To Sectornine50 points...

I don't completely know how fire control on battle ships and cruisers worked. I have seen plenty of films of naval shore bombardment where the heavys were parked, or moving very slowly in a straight line. If you were trying to hit a specific target, spotters were involved to radio back to the ships exact corrections in distance the shell missed the target by. Those wouldn;t be worth much if the ship was steaming around at flank speed on a some parabolic course. Once dialed in, the batteries would all open up and bombard that location. Moving the ship would require re-calibration of the angle, charge, and direction of the projectile. This may have changed on later ships like the Missouri class Battleships, but I don't know.  :salute

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Offline waystin2

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Re: CVs groups need tweaking. My ideas.
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2011, 05:21:12 PM »
Increasing the distance from shore is the best bet.  LVT's could always spawn a bit further in if necessary to still give that thrill of hitting a hot beach without paddling for 45 minutes to see land.
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Offline Baumer

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Re: CVs groups need tweaking. My ideas.
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2011, 06:33:04 PM »
Increasing the distance from shore is the best bet.  LVT's could always spawn a bit further in if necessary to still give that thrill of hitting a hot beach without paddling for 45 minutes to see land.

Coupled with the AA changes I proposed in this months "Puffy Ack" thread I think would solve most of the game play issues.

I will post a good article from CiC magazine on how shore bombardment worked with the ships we have in game. It really is amazing how much technology was developed by the wars end. 
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Offline ImADot

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Re: CVs groups need tweaking. My ideas.
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2011, 06:39:52 PM »
According to the little text blurbs when loading, shore batteries are 5" guns.

Then why do they show in the hangar as 8" Single? One or the other is wrong...I vote for the text blurb being wrong.  ;)
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Offline LTARogue

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Re: CVs groups need tweaking. My ideas.
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2011, 06:55:17 PM »
Submarines!!!




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Offline Chilli

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Re: CVs groups need tweaking. My ideas.
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2011, 07:17:03 PM »
Increasing the distance from shore is the best bet.  LVT's could always spawn a bit further in if necessary to still give that thrill of hitting a hot beach without paddling for 45 minutes to see land.

Good post Vinkman.  I agree Waystin, that seems like a fairly reasonable and doable thing to add.   Of course, we haven't looked at what ways this might effect ports and their protection by home fleets.

I was just looking at film of fleet bombardment of either Iwo Jima or Okinawa.  I was very impressed by the footage of massive rocket launches....  (now I am slipping off into wishlist territory.... but still very cool).

Offline Volron

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Re: CVs groups need tweaking. My ideas.
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2011, 11:04:05 PM »
Why not upgrade the SB?  15" or greater may do the trick.  It may be easier to redo a SB to accommodate the 15+" gun and place it in the same spot as the current 8" gun.  Or, you could add more 8" guns on the maps.  Either way, there will be work to do.  Personally, I think having the 8" guns upgraded to a 15" gun or larger would be reasonable.

40.6 cm SK C/34 or the 38 cm SK C/34 may do the trick.  And yes I know, it's wiki....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Gun

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/38_cm_SK_C/34_naval_



Oh and one more thing; Add AAA to the SB's.  Some auto and/or manned guns on and around the SB would be helpful.
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: CVs groups need tweaking. My ideas.
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2011, 12:11:42 AM »
Since the ground support carriers were generally CVEs with one 5 inch pop gun, and they were escorted by a few DDs and DEs, I think it would make some sense to limit the large carrier groups to further out and add smaller CVE task groups, maybe with more then one CVE in the group so the fight doesn't die with one suicide commando on the carriers either.  keep it to DDs and DEs as escorts so it isn't the bigger cruiser guns.  you can still have decent fights and attempt to take a coastal field, and you've got more but smaller carriers to launch from
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Offline Volron

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Re: CVs groups need tweaking. My ideas.
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2011, 12:37:27 AM »
The 4th option just now clicked...

Vinkman
If you want the manned guns to count as deaths, then there should be perks awarded for shooting down things in one.  At least, this will be the argument made on this.  You don't gain ANY perks for shooting down people in a manned gun, only get your name in the lights....that and the joy of picking someone off in a 37mm manned gun that's 5+k away. :devil  Oh how I wish I filmed that... :bhead

Guppy35
I like that idea.  The problem becomes maps...  Wouldn't a new map need to be created in order to make proper use of this?  Or make existing one's larger?  The counter to this is a common one we hear, "too much room, too little combat".  I know FSO will benefit having CVE groups and what-not though.

I still think that upgrading the Shore Batt guns to 15+" and/or adding AAA to them may work.  I believe some of those large shore guns had better coverage than our current 8" shore gun.  I might be wrong on this though... :headscratch:
Quote from: hitech
Wow I find it hard to believe it has been almost 38 days since our last path. We should have release another 38 versions by now  :bhead
HiTech
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Quote from: Jolly
What on Earth makes you think that i said that sir?!
My guess would be scotch.