Author Topic: putting HDD's in RAID  (Read 827 times)

Offline MaSonZ

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putting HDD's in RAID
« on: January 22, 2012, 04:46:39 PM »
after reding through the post about HDD prices, I got to thinking. does putting 2+ HDD's in RAID give any performance to the machine? and if you put HDD's in RAID, is all the info on the drives gone if one of the drives crashes, or just ther drive that crashed? if it is worth doing, how much of a PITA is it to put drives in RAID?
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Offline guncrasher

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Re: putting HDD's in RAID
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2012, 06:13:51 PM »
if i may add a question too.  do both hd need to be the same?


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Offline Estes

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Re: putting HDD's in RAID
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2012, 06:51:16 PM »
It depends on what kind of RAID array you are wanting to do. Raid 0 is faster, however if one of the hard drives crash, you will not be able to boot. In raid 0, it stores half of a file on one drive, and the other half on the other drive. Which speeds things up a bit, how much it speeds things up is up for debate. There are other raid options out that might be better suited to your tastes, and I don't want to say anything about them, as I don't have much experience with RAID arrays, and will let someone more knowledge answer the rest of the questions.

Offline Butcher

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Re: putting HDD's in RAID
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2012, 06:55:01 PM »
if i may add a question too.  do both hd need to be the same?


semp

Yes they do.
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Offline guncrasher

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Re: putting HDD's in RAID
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2012, 09:07:44 PM »
well gonna wait till next year then I want to set up 4 in raid.  but sure as hell not gonna pay 150 bucks for each one.  funny thing is I was gonna order the hds but decided to wait 1 more week because i wasnt gonna be home.  in 2 days the price of hds almost doubled.


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Offline Tigger29

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Re: putting HDD's in RAID
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2012, 09:37:58 PM »
after reding through the post about HDD prices, I got to thinking. does putting 2+ HDD's in RAID give any performance to the machine? and if you put HDD's in RAID, is all the info on the drives gone if one of the drives crashes, or just ther drive that crashed? if it is worth doing, how much of a PITA is it to put drives in RAID?

I found based on experience that typically a RAID (Redundant Array of Independent Disks) is usually not worth the effort.  Of course there are certain circumstances where it can make a huge difference (typically server applications) but for the typical computer user it's more hassle than it's worth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raid_array

A RAID array can be configured to provide a performance increase, a redundancy, or both:

A RAID 0 array "stripes" two or more drives - basically putting half the info on one and half on the other.  This way it can read and write from two drives at once and theoretically double the performance.  Of course Skuzzy will chime in and explain why this isn't necessarily the case but we all know that theory doesn't always work out in real life.  If you lose one drive then you lose the information on both.

A RAID 1 array "mirrors" two or more drives - basically putting the same information on both.  While this has no performance benefit if you lose one drive the other drive still has an exact copy available as a backup.

And there are other RAID options which can combine striping and mirroring to enhance both performance AND redundancy... and still other RAID options that incorporate error checking and all that but for the typical computer user RAID 0 and 1 are really the two most viable options.

With that being said this all comes down to a similar kind of debate about traditional Hard Drives (HDD) and Solid State Drives (SSD).  While SSDs are many times faster than traditional hard drives many people still argue about not only the dependability of them but also about the true performance benefit to doing so.  Sure you can boot the OS faster and load programs faster but if you primarily run a program that doesn't have to constantly access the drive then aside from shaving a couple of seconds off of the loading time there is no real benefit to having a faster drive.  I wouldn't expect to see any significant difference in Aces High, that's for sure!

Offline Bizman

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Re: putting HDD's in RAID
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2012, 02:30:53 AM »
A RAID array can be configured to provide a performance increase, a redundancy, or both.
I've seen a RAID 1 array (mirrored) where both HDD's were totally inaccessible. One disk wasn't recognized at all, the other one incorrectly, both still being under Seagate factory warranty. All data lost...
Eight years ago while studying ICT, we lost our school e-mail. It was striped on three HDD's, which should be quite redundant: If one disk fails, the information should be recoverable from the remaining two. Somehow there was a chain reaction, which broke two of them...

Rather than building a RAID, a full backup from a lean, clean, patched and tweaked system, maybe even with your favourite games installed, would put you back into business in almost no time in case of a HDD failure.

As for speed in gaming, I believe modern HDD's from the faster edge perform superbly.
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: putting HDD's in RAID
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2012, 05:33:21 AM »
For the purposes of AH it doesnt pay anyway. If a program uses large chunks of uniformly sized data then it helps somewhat (based on a faded memory of my experiments). I gave up on RAID in favor of faster hard drives CPUs and memory. I think I prefer SATA3 on a PCIe controller.
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Offline jocrp6

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Re: putting HDD's in RAID
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2012, 07:49:06 AM »
   When the new SSD's came out I jumped on the band wagon and got two intel 40gig and ran them in a RAID-0 to get 80 gigs out of them, You want to talk about just blistering fast, un real, even while just surfin on line,  you could not out-click it with the mouse, click-there lol.   had a bad overclock currupt data on it to where would not boot,   If you like messing with comps and you have a spare, try it!
   I keep the game and tracker on one bootable SSD, and normal comp stuff on a bootable WD Velaptor.   If I was to run a RAID-0 set up again, get a designated PCI-e RAID card.

Offline Krusty

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Re: putting HDD's in RAID
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2012, 01:09:29 AM »
PCIe RAID cards seem absurdly expensive for mixed (or downright mediocre) reviews on the quality of said product.

The problem with most HDDs is that while they have improved in interface, reliability, storage, etc... Most still run at 7200 rpm. You can only get around a platter so fast.

There are a handful of 10000rpm that are pricey, like the Velociraptor 10k drives, and some SAS drives (special connector, meant more for server use). So when you RAID you will get more performance out of it, as compared to a 7200rpm drive. With gaming an SSD can be a blazing improvement or it can be little different than your HDD. The thing is it depends on if the game is reading levels, textures, maps, models, etc, or if it has to DECOMPRESS them as it reads them. In that case your CPU is the slow point, not the I/O to the HDD. In these games you don't notice any difference. In others it's amazing. I think the overall system responsiveness is pretty awesome, and even if the game doesn't take advantage of that it's great for other things supporting the game.

If/when I do a RAID it will be to help with read/write speeds when recording gameplay footage. I'm torn between a high capacity RAID or a RAM drive and recording shorter sessions. I really want to record more gameplay action but I think my storage is the problem. I saw a review where FRAPS was used on a maxed out Crysis2 (or some other game) at 1900p. When recording the FPS slumped to a pretty stuttery level. So they changed it to record FRAPS from a single dedicated HDD to a 2-SSD RAID 0 drive they set up, and it ran smooth as butter still maxed out, same game, same settings, but recording at 60 fps with no lag.

In that case FRAPs was being slowed down by read-write speeds. So to sum up a long answer: It's going to depend on what you want to use it for. IMO 4 disks minimum at RAID 1+0 is what you need for extra speed and redundancy, but isn't really "safe" as any HDD can fail without warning.

Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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Re: putting HDD's in RAID
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2012, 12:51:17 PM »
PCIe RAID cards seem absurdly expensive for mixed (or downright mediocre) reviews on the quality of said product.

The problem with most HDDs is that while they have improved in interface, reliability, storage, etc... Most still run at 7200 rpm. You can only get around a platter so fast.

There are a handful of 10000rpm that are pricey, like the Velociraptor 10k drives, and some SAS drives (special connector, meant more for server use). So when you RAID you will get more performance out of it, as compared to a 7200rpm drive. With gaming an SSD can be a blazing improvement or it can be little different than your HDD. The thing is it depends on if the game is reading levels, textures, maps, models, etc, or if it has to DECOMPRESS them as it reads them. In that case your CPU is the slow point, not the I/O to the HDD. In these games you don't notice any difference. In others it's amazing. I think the overall system responsiveness is pretty awesome, and even if the game doesn't take advantage of that it's great for other things supporting the game.

If/when I do a RAID it will be to help with read/write speeds when recording gameplay footage. I'm torn between a high capacity RAID or a RAM drive and recording shorter sessions. I really want to record more gameplay action but I think my storage is the problem. I saw a review where FRAPS was used on a maxed out Crysis2 (or some other game) at 1900p. When recording the FPS slumped to a pretty stuttery level. So they changed it to record FRAPS from a single dedicated HDD to a 2-SSD RAID 0 drive they set up, and it ran smooth as butter still maxed out, same game, same settings, but recording at 60 fps with no lag.

In that case FRAPs was being slowed down by read-write speeds. So to sum up a long answer: It's going to depend on what you want to use it for. IMO 4 disks minimum at RAID 1+0 is what you need for extra speed and redundancy, but isn't really "safe" as any HDD can fail without warning.

Just get a server motherboard, install 256 gigs of ram and run a ramdisk. Speed problem solved. :)
Definiteness of purpose is the starting point of all achievement. –W. Clement Stone

Offline Krusty

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Re: putting HDD's in RAID
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2012, 03:12:20 PM »
You know, that is a possible route...

I will be looking for more and more RAM in future builds. This one is capped at 24GB.

Don't most server boards have less performance than gaming rigs, though?

Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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Re: putting HDD's in RAID
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2012, 02:48:05 AM »
You know, that is a possible route...

I will be looking for more and more RAM in future builds. This one is capped at 24GB.

Don't most server boards have less performance than gaming rigs, though?

The differences between motherboards are very small in general. As long as the mobo supports an up to date cpu and has a pci-e slot it will run fine. You may have trouble finding a server mobo with usb3 support or even with sata3 though. They're usually pretty conservative.

If you read motherboard reviews you'll notice that the benchmarks show maybe 1-2% variation between mobos which is next to nothing. The only real performance differences show usually in overclocking ability. Server boards are simply not even meant for overclocks and you won't find any settings for it in bios :) Just make sure the mobo you choose supports the cpu, memory and peripherals you'll need.
Definiteness of purpose is the starting point of all achievement. –W. Clement Stone

Offline Krusty

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Re: putting HDD's in RAID
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2012, 09:35:27 AM »
Are they ATX? Or another layout?

Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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Re: putting HDD's in RAID
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2012, 01:51:01 PM »
Are they ATX? Or another layout?

That depends, some are atx some are eatx etc.

It's not possible to fit enough ram slots to an atx board so either the board must be larger or you need to get extender boards for more ram slots.
Definiteness of purpose is the starting point of all achievement. –W. Clement Stone