The Brewster

[YamaRaja]

Why does this plane perform like it does in AH?
I know it has the bigger motor put in a few Brewsters in Finland.
But it did not turn or climb or accelerate like it does in AH.

The only thing it was sucessful against was some inferior Russian planes. This while using tactics developed in the Pacific and in flights of 4 Brews attacking together.

It failed in the Pacific theater.

Second Lt. Charles S. Hughes, whose Buffalo was forced to retire at the start of the raid due to engine trouble, had a ringside view of the aerial combat:

The Zeros came in strafing immediately afterward. I saw two Brewsters trying to fight the Zeros. One was shot down and the other was saved by ground fires covering his tail. Both looked like they were tied to a string while the Zeros made passes at them.

I have been reading accounts like this:
Second Lt. Charles M. Kunz reported that after successfully downing two Val bombers, he was attacked by Japanese fighters:

I was at an altitude of about 9,000 ft, and shoved over in a dive trying to shake the plane on my tail until I was about 20 feet from the water. I was making radical turns hoping the pilot couldn't get steadied on me. I glanced out of the rear and saw that it was a [Mitsubishi A6M Zero] fighter. I continued flying on a rapid turning course at full throttle when I was hit in the head by a glancing bullet. After he fired a few short burst he left as I had been in a general direction of 205 degrees heading away from the island. My plane was badly shot up... In my opinion the [Zero] fighter has been far underestimated. I think it is probably one of the finest fighters in the present war. As for the F2A-3, (or Brewster trainer) it should be in Miami as a training plane, rather than used as a first line fighter.

While the remarkable Finnish accomplishments in the Buffalo are undeniable, aviation historian Dan Ford points out that Stalin's purges and recent expansion of the Soviet Air Force resulted in many new, inexperienced pilots while simultaneously discouraging combat initiative. The result was pilots who failed to scan the airspace behind them, and also Soviet air formations that held their positions in defensive circles while the diving Finnish pilots picked them off one-by-one. The Soviet fighter aircraft used in the early years on the Finnish front also included some obsolescent models such as the Polikarpov I-15 and I-153. After the end of hostilities, Karhunen, the captain and commander of the 3rd flight of LeLv 24, recalled:

"The Brewster model 239 was good against the older Russian fighters, Polikarpov I-153 Chaika (Gull) and I-16. Hence the period 1941–42 was the best time for us. In 1943 it was already significantly more difficult when the Russians began to use their newer fighters against us... Later, with the Yaks, Hurricanes, Tomahawks, LaGG-3 and MiGs, it became a fight to the death."[48]

Only 44 B-239's were built. The increased horsepower gave it more performance but did not make it a better turn fighter.

It should not be the best turn fighter in the game because it wasnt the best turn fighter.

It is however the most over modeled plane in the game.


Yama

[MAINER]

agreed! It was an awful plane in real life.

[Motherland]

Only 44 B-239's were built. The increased horsepower gave it more performance but did not make it a better turn fighter.

Nope, it was the removal of hundreds of pounds of naval and other unnecessary gear from the aircraft before export that did that.
I wouldn't be surprised if there were some issues with the Brewster's flight model, but turning wise I really don't think so. This was a plane that could and did turn with I-153 biplane fighters over Karelia.

[Soulyss]

You can't compare the Brewster in US service with the one that the Finns used as they were very different planes.  The empty weight of the 239 which we have should be around 3700 lbs.  The F2A-3 which was in the US inventory had an empty weight around 4700lbs (according to America's 100K).

I have a few issues with the Brewster as well, but claiming a problem by siting the US service record is comparing apples to oranges.

[YamaRaja]

You can't compare the Brewster in US service with the one that the Finns used as they were very different planes.  The empty weight of the 239 which we have should be around 3700 lbs.  The F2A-3 which was in the US inventory had an empty weight around 4700lbs (according to America's 100K).

I have a few issues with the Brewster as well, but claiming a problem by siting the US service record is comparing apples to oranges.

I also cited comments about the B239 in particular. It was NOT effective in combat with even mid war fighters like the Lagg 3.
Read the whole post.
Why do many in the forum read half a post, form an opinion and respond in kind.

"While the remarkable Finnish accomplishments in the Buffalo are undeniable, aviation historian Dan Ford points out that Stalin's purges and recent expansion of the Soviet Air Force resulted in many new, inexperienced pilots while simultaneously discouraging combat initiative. The result was pilots who failed to scan the airspace behind them, and also Soviet air formations that held their positions in defensive circles while the diving Finnish pilots picked them off one-by-one. The Soviet fighter aircraft used in the early years on the Finnish front also included some obsolescent models such as the Polikarpov I-15 and I-153. After the end of hostilities, Karhunen, the captain and commander of the 3rd flight of LeLv 24, recalled:

"The Brewster model 239 was good against the older Russian fighters, Polikarpov I-153 Chaika (Gull) and I-16. Hence the period 1941–42 was the best time for us. In 1943 it was already significantly more difficult when the Russians began to use their newer fighters against us... Later, with the Yaks, Hurricanes, Tomahawks, LaGG-3 and MiGs, it became a fight to the death."

The acceleration, climb rate and energy maintaining ability are also factors in its over modeling.

Yama

[chaser]

Just wait untill WMaker sees this... He won't be pleased with you saying something negative about his Brewster lol

[Butcher]

Second Lt. Charles S. Hughes, whose Buffalo was forced to retire at the start of the raid due to engine trouble, had a ringside view of the aerial combat:

The Zeros came in strafing immediately afterward. I saw two Brewsters trying to fight the Zeros. One was shot down and the other was saved by ground fires covering his tail. Both looked like they were tied to a string while the Zeros made passes at them.

Yama

Here's the AAR you took that from: http://www.midway42.org/aa-reports/vmf-221.pdf

Ok first off, as other say - Finland's Brewsters are no where compared to American/British Buffalo's, you fail to take into account of Pilot experience and flight levels. For example the pilots coming off the Japanese carriers were some of the highest trained pilots in the world, with years of flight training, experience and some had air combat experience in China.

The Japanese Carrier pilots were world class trained, I remember reading the numbers - one in (hundreds?) finished flight school. In retrospect - the American navy had the only pilots close in class to this type of skill level, although not quite as experienced - there's plenty of evidence of this.

Some pilots claimed the Zero flew 450mph, other's said it was lost before it even left the ground - the pilots were scared and completely out numbered - think about fighting a horde, do you think 100 on 30 is fair to judge the quality of the aircraft?

Problem is you can't account for equal skill, for example one of the German Aces in the Desert war "Star of Africa" once found over a half dozen P-40s flying in a lufbery circle, which was a defensive circle to help friendly aircraft protect each other's 6. Instead the Ace shot down a number of the P-40s as the Tactics and Pilots failed to understand skill and tactics have changed.

Ok if thats a bad example - Look at the Thach Weave, It proved that no matter how invincisible an aircraft can be, two F4F's covering each other could eliminate the Zero's threat.

The Pilot training in Japan didn't last, in 1942 there was a serious shortage of pilots as well as going into 1943, this training method of taking one in 50? hundred? proved to be a serious problem - it wasn't until late 1943/44 when Japan was able to start cranking out fighter pilots with the same skill level as American navy Pilots in 1941/1942 - and if you look at the books - Japan could not compete with the sheer numbers of pilots America was producing by day.

If you look at Rangoon for a good example of what good experience tactics and pilots can do, it goes to show even with a crappy plane the pilots came out better then they should of.


Now I am not putting down the defenders at Singapore or Midway, the Brewster only failed as much as the training, experience and aircraft was.

They fought hard and lost a losing battle.

[Karnak]

What do you mean?  Its acceleration is crap.  Sure, it turns well, but that is all that it does.

[Debrody]

What do you mean?  Its acceleration is crap.  Sure, it turns well, but that is all that it does.

Dives like a LW monster, can kill you from 800 out, can hang on the prop to practically zero airspeed and still shoot you on the face, has the best low-speed handling characteristics in game while the only one what can even come colse is the A6M3.

[bozon]

The Finns had much more going for them then crappy Russian fighters. Not all Russian planes were obsolete and the B239 continued to serve in the Fin airforce even after new Russian fighters entered - and with continued success. This was due to a combination of the Fin version of the Brewster being lighter than the carrier version and in particular the very high skill level of the Fin pilots. I know some American find it hard to accept, but in 1942 US pilots did not enjoy superior training, did not develop tactics yet and completely lacked any combat experience, hence were not as good as some other air forces. Early operations in the ETO were also not that impressive and only after year they gained experience, tactics were improved and they started to gain the clear upper hand. Of course, no pilot will land and say that a Jap had clubbed him like a noob baby seal - he'll blame the plane. Even if that is true that the Brewster was inferior to the Zero, it was also the pilots. You can also find some similarities in the P-39 story, reputation and export success.

[Ruah]

its easier to fly then the zero since it basically does not stall. . . has fantastic flaps, 4x golden bbs, dives forever, docile high speed, docile low speed.  Sure it lacks top speed by a lot and does not regain e super fast. . .but it does not need much.

I usually skip brewsters, i can keep one pinned forever, but its not fun.

[LilMak]

The thing that bothers me about the Brew in game is that it seems to never loses E, and seems to get to top speed faster than a top fuel dragster. I can't count the number of times I've come screaming in a dive in my Jug doing nearly 300mph only to watch a low energy Brew do a climbing 180 degree turn and then stay with me as I continue to try dive away. Seems hard to fathom that a plane with a 100+mph slower top speed, 1/2 the HP, and 1/2 the weight could ever get a shot off on me when, at the start of the engagment I was already nearly at the Brewsters top speed and accelerating in a dive the whole time. Eventually, I will pull away in these situations, but not before they pepper me with .50s. It's not like a quick snapshot either. It feels like they're hangin back there like I'm towing them with a bungee chord. I don't have this problem with zeros, hurris, or even the spit16. Only the Brewster. Just seems fishy.

[NOT]

Would love to see films of all these "fishy" engagements......... I have no trouble at all dieing in a Brew. 




NOT

[Wmaker]

The original post is full of factual errors and unvalid conclusions, much more than I have energy to adress.

This misconception below seems to be a popular one and surfaces often so I'll refute it here.

The only thing it was sucessful against was some inferior Russian planes. This while using tactics developed in the Pacific and in flights of 4 Brews attacking together.

Here are few aireal victories of the Brewster during the last summer of the Continuation War:

17.06.44, 16.45-17.45, P-39
17.06.44, 17.20-17.25, Pe-2
18.06.44, 07.45-09.05, La-5
18.06.44, 07.45-09.05, Pe-2
18.06.44, 07.45-09.05, Pe-2
18.06.44, 10.50-11.30, La-5
14.07.44, 15.15-16.50, Yak-9
14.07.44, 16.00-16.30, Yak-9
15.07.44, 11.35-12.55, LaGG-3
16.07.44, 13.10, La-5
16.07.44, 13.17, La-5
27.08.44, 09.30-11.15, P-40

Source:

http://www.kolumbus.fi/kari.stenman/

...it is also good to remember that many of these victories were scored while being significantly outnumbered and by the summer of '44, Brewsters obviously were starting to be rather war weary. So saying that it wasn't succesful against later Soviet types is complete nonsense. Not that this matters either way when it comes to how Brewster is modelled in AH. Why things happened in real wars how they did isn't a good way to gauge simulated performance of any aircraft.

[Seanaldinho]

The acceleration is horrible, climb is horrible, armament is horrible so what are you complaining about? I love the brewster because it suits my style of play which is low and slow on the deck. I hate high altitude fights dunno why I just dont like them. I dont know how many times Ive lost a kill in a brewster because my enemy simply extended and I was pedaling along behind him at 250 to 300.