The Brewster

[Butcher]

Agreed.  This is the one problem I have with it.  It is being used in settings it has no business being used in.  Really we needed to have two models of the Brewster added, the B-239 used in Finland and then either a B-339E or an F2A3 for use in Pacific settings.  I suspect that alone would have killed most of the whines as they'd have the sucky version they expect and it would be easier for them to understand that the Finnish version was very different in terms of handling.

I think the models are to close to actually need to make them any different, simply use a different gun package if you want the different versions. When I mean to close, a hundred Horsepower and 30lbs less in armor hardly needs an entirely new flight model which takes months to build to be based on.

Unless there was a totally significant change in the structure of the aircraft or flight characteristics then sure a model can be done, but not likely since the Buffalo was recently added.

As Lusche says, I think people simply underestimate a decent stick in a buffalo and get chewed apart, I flew against it in the Rangoon Scenario in an A6m2 and had no problem out turning and shooting buffalo's down.

[Reaper90]

I think the models are to close to actually need to make them any different, simply use a different gun package if you want the different versions. When I mean to close, a hundred Horsepower and 30lbs less in armor hardly needs an entirely new flight model which takes months to build to be based on.

There's the disconnect, I think, because this quote from Soulyss on page 1 would seem to indicate that there is a much bigger difference between the planes than you state:

You can't compare the Brewster in US service with the one that the Finns used as they were very different planes.  The empty weight of the 239 which we have should be around 3700 lbs.  The F2A-3 which was in the US inventory had an empty weight around 4700lbs (according to America's 100K).

1000 pounds less will make the b239 seem like a lot different plane, that's for sure.

[Butcher]

There's the disconnect, I think, because this quote from Soulyss on page 1 would seem to indicate that there is a much bigger difference between the planes than you state:

1000 pounds less will make the b239 seem like a lot different plane, that's for sure.

Granted 1000lbs is a difference in weight, but how much performance is gained from this? enough to design another RV-8 with guns?

[alpini13]

and with ALL that said...only 44 of this spec planed were produced....why is it in aces high2 and soo many other should be here first...and why dosnt it qualify other low production a/c...like the RE-2005

[Karnak]

Butcher,

IIRC, it is the difference between 25lbs/sq.ft of wing loading and 34lbs/sq.ft of wing loading, along with the associated climb/acceleration loss.  That is pretty significant.  It goes from turning with A6Ms to being badly out classed by A6Ms, and when used in Pacific settings that particular match up matters.

and with ALL that said...only 44 of this spec planed were produced....why is it in aces high2 and soo many other should be here first...and why dosnt it qualify other low production a/c...like the RE-2005

Because it saw heavy use.  Production numbers aren't the only thing that matters.  How many kills did the Re2005 get?  Did it even get 25 kills?

The B-239 got hundreds of kills in Finnish hands.

[NOT]

I am still waiting on films that support all these whines about uber-over modeledness.................. ...






NOT

[Karnak]

I am still waiting on films that support all these whines about uber-over modeledness.................. ...






NOT

Don't hold your breath....

 


(I've never seen anybody supply a film supporting a claim of such and such being overmodeled in AH, not the Brewster, not the Spitfire Mk XVI, not anything.)

[Wmaker]

I suspect that alone would have killed most of the whines as they'd have the sucky version they expect and it would be easier for them to understand that the Finnish version was very different in terms of handling.

I've had similar thoughts myself but then I arrived into a conclusion that it might even increase the whining because even the F2A-3 wouldn't quite match their own expectations due to the fact that the biggest reasons why F2A-3 was rejected by the Navy wouldn't show themselves in AH. I dare say that even the poorness of the F2A-3 has been greatly exaturated from the first pilot's statements after the unfortunate Midway encounter with the Zekes to this very day. I still think that the Wildcat was the better and overall more suitable fighter for the Navy but the reasons for that are mostly somewhere else than in the "poor" maneuverability of the F2A-3.

If F2A-3 would come to AH, people would quickly compare F2A-3 to F4F-4 and scream bloody murder when F4F-4 would only barely turn inside F2A-3 and in some cases not at all. They'd quicky forget that the more appropriate comparison would be about against F4F-3. After all, Wildcat got almost 1200lbs (!!) of weight added to it when version was switched from -3 to -4, sounds famillar doesn't it. But for some reason, that increase in weight hasn't quite got the same press as the weight gain of the Brewster.

As I mentioned, the real reasons why Brewster was eventually rejected by the Navy have actually very little to do with Brewster's handling characteristics or its flight performance but that isn't widely known. What is widely known is the "Midway disaster". It was good "press/propaganda" (so to say) to blaim (relatively) small firm's plane instead of other factors that might have contributed to the defeat in the air when Japanese were running across the Pacific. That doesn't mean that I think that the US pilots did poorly but they truly had the odds stacked against them and had to pay the (ultimate) price for it. It wouldn't have mattered much even if they all would have been in F4Fs instead.

[Oldman731]

As I mentioned, the real reasons why Brewster was eventually rejected by the Navy have actually very little to do with Brewster's handling characteristics or its flight performance but that isn't widely known. What is widely known is the "Midway disaster". It was good "press/propaganda" (so to say) to blaim (relatively) small firm's plane instead of other factors that might have contributed to the defeat in the air when Japanese were running across the Pacific.

....well...except it isn't as if the British were clearing the skies of Malaysia with their Buffalos....

- oldman

[JUGgler]

If I ever have a stroke and lose the use of the left or right side of my body, I'll fly a brew. It is so easy barely 1 arm is required 




JUGgler

[Wmaker]

....well...except it isn't as if the British were clearing the skies of Malaysia with their Buffalos....

Yes? That goes along with my point. Considering the overwhelming odds they too had, they did very well.

[Reaper90]

If F2A-3 would come to AH, people would quickly compare F2A-3 to F4F-4 and scream bloody murder when F4F-4 would only barely turn inside F2A-3 and in some cases not at all.

I for one would LOVE to have the F2A-3....

[SmokinLoon]

It has been mentioned that the EW version of the Brewster is a bit different than the versions the Finn's had, with weight and engine power being the two biggest differences.

With that being said, I'd really like to see the EW versions put in to the game because the version currently in AH is being used in EW scenarios and is able to easily compete with aircraft that are supposedly superior in every way, at least as told by multiple historical documents and pilot testimony.

While the Brewster we currently have in AH may be a good representative of what the Finn's had, it certainly is not a good representative to what the RAF, RAAF, USN, US Marines, or other such sorry saps that had to use.

[Karnak]

With that being said, I'd really like to see the EW versions put in to the game because the version currently in AH is being used in EW scenarios and is able to easily compete with aircraft that are supposedly superior in every way, at least as told by multiple historical documents and pilot testimony.

I got shouted down for pointing that out once.  Something to the effect that it was better that the US pilots had a fighting chance against the A6M2s.

Oddly, when the shoe was on the other foot and it was F4U1s against A6M2s, all was right in the world as well and the Japanese side needed to just suck it up and deal.

[Karnak]

Speaking of which, here it is again being used at Midway:

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,329323.msg4315782.html#msg4315782