Author Topic: F/A-18E vs. F-35C  (Read 8687 times)

Offline Stoney

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Re: F/A-18E vs. F-35C
« Reply #120 on: March 09, 2012, 01:41:00 PM »
I was on ship that night, in the Adriatic with our Marines on TRAP standby.  I had just finished dinner that night when it went down, and went up to the TACC on the ship to listen to/watch via Link 11 the rescue mission to pick up the pilot.  We got sloppy and the Serbs took advantage of it.  But, we were sloppy because we thought the tech would do the heavy lifting for us, rather than sound fundamentals.  Guy almost got captured as half the damn Serb army was chasing him around the countryside.
"Can we be incorrect at times, absolutely, but I do believe 15 years of experience does deserve a little more credence and respect than you have given from your very first post."

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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: F/A-18E vs. F-35C
« Reply #121 on: March 09, 2012, 01:58:13 PM »
You are missing my point.

Probably. I'm good at that.
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Offline Bodhi

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Re: F/A-18E vs. F-35C
« Reply #122 on: March 09, 2012, 02:24:38 PM »
Krusty, You need to get a grip.  Stop making things up and I won't keep pointing out your fabrications.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2012, 02:26:09 PM by Bodhi »
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Offline Mace2004

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Re: F/A-18E vs. F-35C
« Reply #123 on: March 09, 2012, 03:27:44 PM »
Without taking sides between Krusty and Bodhi, the problem seems to stem from a simple misunderstanding of how "stealth" works (or in this case didn't).  BTW, none of what I'm going to say is classified, it's basic Stealth 101 and is easily available in open source plus these fundamentals have been known for decades.  There is a lot more I'm not saying but the fundamentals is all that's important to this discussion.

Stealth airplanes are not completely invisible to radar and how visible they are depends a lot on radar frequency.  Only so much radar NRG can be absorbed, the rest is "managed" by reflecting it away from the emitter.  The B-2 is an easy example.  If you look at the top view of the plane you immediately notice that it's angular...I know...duhhhhh.  Those angles serve to reflect radar NRG off at a different angle than where it was received from but there's a problem with this.  Each of the leading and trailing edges (and even seams along panels and edges) creates a relatively strong reflection to any source that's perpendicular to it because each is basically nothing but half of a dipole antenna.  This is particularly a problem if that source is low-frequency (i.e., long wave-length) with a wave length the same (or multiple of) the physical dimensions of the object it's hitting.  Since most airplanes are designed around aerodynamic, not radar reflection, considerations there can be hundreds of straight edges and each creates its own reflection so the average airplane is one big old radar reflector and is easily detected from any direction.  This is a problem even if the whole vehicle is covered with RAM so the designer has to manage the reflection that can't be absorbed.  Notice in the picture of the B-2 how almost every straight edge or seam on the plane is parallel to the leading edges of the wings.

 


In other words every single edge is perpendicular to only four distinct directions so the B-2 has only four lobes perpendicular to the leading and trailing edges which means that those are points at which it's easier to detect.  I'm not saying it's easy to detect, just easier compared to other directions.  There's still lots of other things going on but this is basic physics.  That's also why the F-117's construction is only part of how it achieves stealth, the other is a mission planning system that manages it's route so as to control where those reflections are pointed. 

The fact that the F-117 in Serbia flew a repetitive track made it predictable.  The fact that the Serbs moved their radars made them unpredictable.  When you combine their apriori knowledge of where the F-117 would go along with some weak detections by their low-frequency, long wave length air search radars it's fairly easy to see how they improved the likelihood that they would get a shot.  Also, based on the fact that the F-117 pilot didn't get any RAW indications means (to me) that the missile was optically guided which is made possible because the missile operators knew where and when to look for the target.  The claim by the Serb commander that he modified his antennas seems extremely unlikely to be true.  He made have tried some mod but the fact that he successfully killed the F-117 doesn't prove the mod did anything at all.  It's sort of like those people that put one of those supposedly power enhancing things that plug into your car's cigarette lighter and then claiming it gave him 30 more HP.  Bull.  The only thing he could have done that might have been even remotely successful would be to tune his radar frequency to give him a wavelenth that was an exact multiple of the F-117's leading edge but I have no idea is this is even possible with his equipment.
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Offline Tank-Ace

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Re: F/A-18E vs. F-35C
« Reply #124 on: March 09, 2012, 06:43:48 PM »
We built something like 44,000 Sherman tanks during WWII.  The Germans built something like 1,400 Tigers.  I don't know how many T-34s the Russians built, but it was close to the Sherman numbers.  Now, I've never heard a German tanker complain about the Tiger, much the opposite really.  But, ultimately, that type of production and fielding disparity was decisive, rather than the quality of the weapons.  If we can't afford to buy enough F-22/F-35 to persist in the air in a high-intensity environment, that's a problem in my opinion.  The Osprey is another aircraft I have similar feelings about, but since we're getting them in quantities for a one-to-one swap for the Frog, I don't have as much heartburn about them.  Its not about the length of development, or the cost of development, per se, but the ability of the aircraft to operate continuously in a high-threat environment during sustained operations.  Are we gonna have enough of them after a few get shot down, some are lost due to non-combat operational losses, and after the wear and tear of high-intensity operational tempo starts to impact our ability to maintain them in sufficient numbers.  Maybe we will, but my gut tells me that we're getting close to a point with these two aircraft where top technology is too expensive to be cost-effective.

I don't think thats an apt comparison. Germany only produced about 36k Panzer III, IV, Panther and Tiger tanks/Ferdies. A fair number of the Panzer IVs will be early models with the short 75, and most Panzer III's will be Ausf J1 and earlier, without the long 50mm gun. Germany still would have lost if they'd cranked out 50K Panzer IV Ausf. H's instead, because even with that, they were still fighting against better than 2:1 odds best case sceario.
You started this thread and it was obviously about your want and desire in spite of your use of 'we' and Google.

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Offline Stoney

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Re: F/A-18E vs. F-35C
« Reply #125 on: March 10, 2012, 04:51:22 PM »
I don't think thats an apt comparison. Germany only produced about 36k Panzer III, IV, Panther and Tiger tanks/Ferdies. A fair number of the Panzer IVs will be early models with the short 75, and most Panzer III's will be Ausf J1 and earlier, without the long 50mm gun. Germany still would have lost if they'd cranked out 50K Panzer IV Ausf. H's instead, because even with that, they were still fighting against better than 2:1 odds best case sceario.

Ok, maybe so.  They certainly bit off more than they could chew, won't deny that.  But my point remains.  Especially the second part of my last post.
"Can we be incorrect at times, absolutely, but I do believe 15 years of experience does deserve a little more credence and respect than you have given from your very first post."

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Offline Tank-Ace

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Re: F/A-18E vs. F-35C
« Reply #126 on: March 10, 2012, 06:25:18 PM »
Ok, maybe so.  They certainly bit off more than they could chew, won't deny that.  But my point remains.  Especially the second part of my last post.

Fair enough, not arguing your point. Just saying that our current situation isn't comperable to that of WWII Germany's. Infact, I don't think its comperable to any previous situation, at least not to the point that we can extrapolate a likely course of events based on previous actions.

We don't know the wartime production of either ourselves, our our enemies. We don't even know who we would be fighting against, or who would be fighting with us.

I think its near-guaranteed that the US could force any individual nation, or a fair-sized chunck of the EU (but not all of the EU together) into air-denial operations, or perhaps even full on air-incapability with a bit of luck, for a limited period of time (say, 3-4 months?), and would be able to maintain air-parity for anywhere between another 6 months and indefinetly (depending on whos fighting against us/with us).

But I don't think theres any chance that the USA would be overwhelmed within the first 9 months of opperations. Say what you will, theres no denying that we have one HELL of a production capacity, and the logistics train to keep supplys moving.
You started this thread and it was obviously about your want and desire in spite of your use of 'we' and Google.

"Once more unto the breach"