Did the Russians plan to invade Germany in 1941/1942

[Angus]

Oh, Rich52
"I dont think Losses in BOB had much impact in the east"
I beg to differ. LW's losses in the few weeks of the BoB amounted for more than 50% of the strength they deployed in operation Barbarossa. In short, - 50% extra DOES make a difference, - and it is NOT only the aircraft, - it is also the crews.
Same goes with LW's airpower tied up in the west on the eve of Barbarossa. Equal strength as applied on the eastern front.
With Britain at ease from the point of Hitler's "appeal to reason", - the LW could have had their air offensive 2-3 times stronger. Without bothering with the BoB alone, - about 50% stronger, - probably more.

[KgB]

HAHAHAHAHA wow, so you think that was condescending???? damn you need to meet me in person!!! sarcasm at the stupidity of others is an ingrained part of my personal persona! i am much nicer on line cause intardnet tough guys are pathetic!

Oh wow, he even googled toothless jaw pressure. So you going around telling people they stupid in their faces?  Christ, you must be tough in real life because you say so:)

[cattb]

They could have broken the back of the British, but at the 11th hour, Hitler instructed them to focus on attacking the cities which gave the British time to recover and ultimately stop them.

Another mistake was the English radar was never completely destroyed as it was overlooked by the germans.

[oakranger]

There pretty much wasnt a Soviet air force after the opening days of Barbarossa. What was left wasnt much of a threat so the Luftwaffe roamed at will. I dont think Losses in BOB had much impact in the east. There the air war was lost in the battle of production and the drainage of Luftwaffe assets to protect Germany from the bomber assault that was to come. Frankly there was no way Stalin would have even considered an invasion until 1942 at the earliest.

Even then you have to wonder at the motivation of the Soviet soldier invading another country under Stalins orders, especially one like Germany with the best army in the world at the time. Even when invaded themselves it was German tyrrany as much as Stalins tyrrany that eventually turned them into a fierce armed force. Its a mystery why Stalin clung stubbornly to the idea that Hitler would not invade in '41 when every possible Intel source he had told him different. But as to the Soviets invading Germany? Not till '42 at the least and maybe not even then.

Rich, the Russian out number the Germans in the air, by June of 41.  German had just 2,800 while Russians had 10,000.  However, Stalin did not build up the western front and had all the units spread out in Russia.  If he did push the units closer to the front before Germany invaded, Operation Barbarossa would have a different result  They where disorganized before 42' when they start picking up and over run the LW.  

[Ardy123]

My grandfather could kick all your grandfathers' arses! He fought in ALL the wars! 

ARTHRITIC WARS!!!

5 bucks a seat....

[Bruv119]

They could have broken the back of the British, but at the 11th hour, Hitler instructed them to focus on attacking the cities which gave the British time to recover and ultimately stop them.

could?   oh  rly?     why did Hitler do that? because British bombs were dropped on Berlin in return for a wayward bomber crew accidentally hitting London.

Hitler's ego couldn't stand it, allowing 11 Group's airfields to be patched up and ever increasing numbers of Spitfires and Hurricanes to shoot down the Luftwaffe's Bomber forces.   

If the 109's had more fuel to mix it up then maybe things would have been different.  Every German pilot shot down was lost for the rest of the war every bailed Allied pilot would be back in the air the next day (if unhurt)!   

[cattb]

My grandpa did also, he fought in the  Zenkunen War fought from  1051 to 1063 in Japan of many wars.
sorry for the hijack

[Ardy123]

could?   oh  rly?

Yeah, really! 

[FLOTSOM]

Oh wow, he even googled toothless jaw pressure. So you going around telling people they stupid in their faces?  Christ, you must be tough in real life because you say so:)

silly silly boy i didnt google toothless jaw pressure hahahahaha i once again provided you with a place to start to research facts regarding a discussion you are involved in. you seem more interested in throwing out ridiculous and completely inaccurate statements without bothering to do any research. so once again you have proven my point, you have no real interest in being educated on the topic at hand.

im not particularly tough, dont need to be, but i am extremely sarcastic and i am never shy about screwing with someone.

[Rash]

If Germany would've won the air war, they still needed to occupy the ground.  A land bridge compared to the sea bridge.  which seams more possible?  Russia was just buying time, and it worked!


Rash

[Masherbrum]

Rich, the Russian out number the Germans in the air, by June of 41.  German had just 2,800 while Russians had 10,000.  However, Stalin did not build up the western front and had all the units spread out in Russia.  If he did push the units closer to the front before Germany invaded, Operation Barbarossa would have a different result  They where disorganized before 42' when they start picking up and over run the LW.  

.....and the Soviets had Zilch air experience in comparison to the Veterans of the Luftwaffe.    They were not Spread out on the Western Front.    They always used the "Three Group Attack/Defense".    The bigger problem again, was the simple fact that the Soviets had little experienced NCO ranks and Commisioned Officer Ranks, as most were executed.    Also hindering any "progress" was a fear of pissing off the Putz himself, which lead to more errors in judgement for the first 10 days of Operation Barbarossa.    

Two things stalled the Germans.  

1.)  The disorganized Supply Line.   Milch flew out twice and corrected major flaws and they pushed both times.     Then they were stuck on stupid a final time and it was the nail in the coffin.  Germany had to now "go on the Defensive/Stall and march West".

2.)  The gauge of Railroad tracks were narrower than most of Europe.   This caused a major issue for a lot of the Supplies/Troop movements as the Soviet tracks were an older gauge than the Locomotives/Railway cars that the Germans possessed.

You said earlier that "the USSR had no plans to invade Germany":



There were in fact a number a "attack plans", such as the above.  Once the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was signed, the days were numbered.   But Stalin, was more concerned with "time to himself in his Office" for a decent amount of time at the start of Operation Barbarossa.  

This was a great book and easy to read.  http://www.amazon.com/Stalins-Folly-Tragic-First-Eastern/dp/0618773614   It is beyond informative and highlights Stalin's deficiencies and ineptness as a leader.   I have the Advanced Reader Copy, as my oldest brother works for a Book Distributor and I get a bunch of WWII books almost monthly for free, these just are not the final draft and usually do not have the Maps, Pictures, typo's, etc.

[MiloMorai]

Soviet pilots did fight in the Spanish Civil War.

What is so wrong with the Lw city attacks. The US 8th AF did the same later in the war. The 8th's objective was to destroy the German fighter force, which they eventually did but it took time.

[Rino]

Why didn't Hitler invade Switzerland? It would make things much easier.

     Because they had impressive defenses, and mountain fighting no fun anyway?

[oakranger]

.....and the Soviets had Zilch air experience in comparison to the Veterans of the Luftwaffe.    They were not Spread out on the Western Front.    They always used the "Three Group Attack/Defense".    The bigger problem again, was the simple fact that the Soviets had little experienced NCO ranks and Commisioned Officer Ranks, as most were executed.    Also hindering any "progress" was a fear of pissing off the Putz himself, which lead to more errors in judgement for the first 10 days of Operation Barbarossa.    

Two things stalled the Germans.  

1.)  The disorganized Supply Line.   Milch flew out twice and corrected major flaws and they pushed both times.     Then they were stuck on stupid a final time and it was the nail in the coffin.  Germany had to now "go on the Defensive/Stall and march West".

2.)  The gauge of Railroad tracks were narrower than most of Europe.   This caused a major issue for a lot of the Supplies/Troop movements as the Soviet tracks were an older gauge than the Locomotives/Railway cars that the Germans possessed.

You said earlier that "the USSR had no plans to invade Germany":

(Image removed from quote.)

There were in fact a number a "attack plans", such as the above.  Once the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was signed, the days were numbered.   But Stalin, was more concerned with "time to himself in his Office" for a decent amount of time at the start of Operation Barbarossa.  

This was a great book and easy to read.  http://www.amazon.com/Stalins-Folly-Tragic-First-Eastern/dp/0618773614   It is beyond informative and highlights Stalin's deficiencies and ineptness as a leader.   I have the Advanced Reader Copy, as my oldest brother works for a Book Distributor and I get a bunch of WWII books almost monthly for free, these just are not the final draft and usually do not have the Maps, Pictures, typo's, etc.

Thanks for posting that map.  When did they have planes to do this or was this just a plan as "just in case"?  As for the Russian air forces, I would have to go back on that.  I knew they out number Germany and not organized at all.  Maybe my part of saying that they where spread out was after Germany invasion into Russia.  You fail to mention of how many good pilots Germany lost in Battle of Britain or how many they lost from Poland to France, Norway, BoB, Yugoslavia, and Greece all together.

[Angus]

Masher, - the BIG thing that stalled the Germans in Barbarossa was the southern advance. Another big thing was the way they acted with their "cauldron battles", - i.e. instead of spearheading to the goals, they would tend to encircle the red army divisions and annihilate them.
When Guderian found out about the southern advance, he tried to change the plan, but without results. His goal was to grab Moscow ASAP, form a strongpoint there, and THEN head for the south, where the winter arrives later.
Now, of the red airforce, - their strenght was always more then Germany's in numbers. Even after thousands of aircraft were destroyed on the ground in the opening days of Barbarossa. Well, - that is one of the points in the lecture, - stacking up aircraft and airfields within shooting range from a borderline is a completely offensive setup, NOT defensive.
But as a true strength in the air, LW dominated in the beginning, and would have done so much more had it not been blood-drained so vigourously by the RAF.
Later, at the turning point at Stalingrad, the same problem actually occured. Operation Torch took place in the same period. In the frantic chaos of both battles, valuable transports, and more were sent FROM the Russian theatre to the med, in order to assist in the evacuation at Tunisia. It was in vain, - the allies had a field day in the air, and captured more than 300.000 POW's.
I once compared loss records from the LW (in the microfilm archive of the IWM) from Stalingrad and N-Africa. The losses seemed to be higher in N-Africa to my surprize, - but back then, I actually was finding out for the first time how big those events actually were.