How do you approach a Spit?

[Wiley]

I just want to point out that this is NOT what I'd do to create an overshoot.  In broad terms, I'd never try to do it that way, unless I was desperate and in big trouble.  It takes away too many options.

Do it with angles, rather than trying to do it by slowing down.  Once you create the overshoot, you'll want to be fast enough to kill your opponent.  If you're too slow that won't happen.

I just had one of those 'now why didn't I think of that?' moments.  I use angles instead of slowing down when I'm at higher speed than the bandit offensively, it never occurred to me to do it defensively.  That's going to make a big difference.  Thanks.

Wiley.

[GradeyShane]

I try to only BNZ a spit (depends on bird but usually im in 205 lately so bnz it is hehe).  If I see a spit with greater E than I do, I attempt to avoid him until I have the superior energy...if he forces the issue, usually you can nose down to get the spit to chase you through higher speeds, then roll around him as he passes through.  If he is good and regulates his energy properly it can be utter hell though.

[morfiend]

 I've been reading this with interest,it seems to me no one mentioned to turn the spit left!

  The 16 with it's clipped wings tends to drop the left wing sooner than most spits.Forcing your enemy to turn left is forcing him to work against the torque and it's more likely he/she will stall the left wing and roll out of the turn.


  Awhile back a well known B38 pilot came to me and said he was having all kinds of trouble with the 16 so I hopped in 1 and put him through a few paces. He tended to turn right,even though his B38 can turn both ways equally!

  As soon as I pointed this out and got him going left he quickly gained ground on me as the 16 just couldnt hang in those right turns. A couple days latter he showed up and said thx,so simple but effective!

  Personally I try to use the spits abilities against itself,nose down make it pick up speed,roll right and try to force a barrelroll reversal.  If that doesnt work,you can always shoot them in the face!




   

[FLS]

Good point Morf, not just for P-38s but also the aircraft with opposite prop rotation.

[uptown]

I'm glad I came back to this. But what is a barrelroll reversal ? You mean attempt to get the spit to overshoot with a barrelroll?

I had an encounter with a spixteen today where I was on the deck in a 51D at around 225/250 IAS when on my high 6 about 1K away I noticed him dropping down for me. So rather then turn,figuring he'd just turn inside of me and keep me turning until i was too slow, I straightened out and tried to get as fast as i could to create some kind of separation. He got within 400 and stayed there for several minutes, all the while I'm rolling, wing dips and juking to avoid his rounds. Finally i stretch the distance to 1000 and he breaks off.

Then afterwards I get the "typical running 51" insults. My question is, what else could I have done in that situation? Seems to me I used my plane's strength's i.e. speed, instead of playing into his hand by turning with him. 

[mtnman]

If I may ask, any direction on how you would implement this against a higher faster Spit? I would appreciate it.

Might be relevant to other planes too, not just the hog, so hopefully not too much of a hijack.

Sure, it's relevant to the situation, so it's relevant to any plane type. 

There's nothing special about the spits, and even if there was it's the pilot you need to beat, not the plane.  There are very few players who can really bring out everything any plane has to offer, so if you go with the idea that you need to beat a player, or a situation, you'll be ready for the vast majority of fights.  You may need to "fine tune" your tactics for a specific plane type, or you may not...  Primarily when I "fine tune" I'm just adjusting the size/speed/timing of my maneuvers, rather than using different maneuvers.

I'm a hog flyer because it's the only plane that has enough visual appeal to interest me for an entire sortie.  I play AH to fly F4U's.  I'll admit it though, I do benefit from the fact that the hog is the absolute best plane in the game.  F4U's are faster than Spits, so IMO, they control the fight (unless the F4U screws up).  Since the spit really cannot catch me, he cannot "control" me, and cannot "dictate" the terms of a fight unless I let him.  Essentially, I have to screw up to get killed by a spit (which definitely does happen, btw).  Anyway...

I personally find it easier to take the spits advantage away if I start in the lower "disadvantaged" state.  I think this is in large part due to the mental game.  He "knows" he has excess E, so can afford (and will probably need to) scrub some of it to kill me.  He knows that, and is ready for it, so it makes it easier for me to make him do it.  If my maneuvering and timing are "right", he's going to scrub that E and end up in front of me at the same time, and then die for his trouble.  Against a lower/slower spit though, it's the opposite situation.  He "knows" he's already disadvantaged, and needs to hold his speed as best he can.  It's going to be a little tougher for me to get him in front of me for a shot.

So, the higher spit...

This guy can be "temporarily" dangerous, because he has the ability to catch me (his height makes him faster than me, so he can actually dictate/control the fight if I let him).  I need to take away his speed advantage, and the quicker I can do it the better.

There are really two possible scenarios here.  He either attacks, or he doesn't.  Assuming he attacks, he's going to catch you and force you to do something.  If that happens, you're already in trouble.

To avoid this problem, you have to stop the spit from forcing you to do anything.  You may not be able to stop him from catching you, but you can stop him from forcing you to do something.

Defeating the higher spit begins with SA (you cannot afford to get caught off-guard) and then moves into "forming a plan", followed by executing it (with some "tweaking" at times).  IMO, if you get caught and are forced to do something, the root cause of your death is lack of SA (you didn't detect/recognize the threat/situation/change) in time.  Following that, you may need work in knowing effective tactics (and recognizing when to apply them), or if you know them, you may need work in timing them or executing them.

So, here comes the spit... 

I have two choices- let him catch me and force me to turn, or else turn and let him catch me.  Personally, I'm going to turn first, while I still have some options.  If I turn early I can avoid a hard, energy-sapping break turn.  I'm making the turn on my "own time"; I'm not being forced.  I'm not being controlled.  My opponent is not dictating the terms of the fight.

He's still coming and I'm still turning, but now I'm dictating the angle-off of his approach.  He began this fight fully in control.  I'm now beginning to take that control away a piece at a time.

I have to go do some brush-clearing at a local Boy Scout camp, I'll be back to finish this later.

[FLS]

I'm glad I came back to this. But what is a barrelroll reversal ? You mean attempt to get the spit to overshoot with a barrelroll?

I had an encounter with a spixteen today where I was on the deck in a 51D at around 225/250 IAS when on my high 6 about 1K away I noticed him dropping down for me. So rather then turn,figuring he'd just turn inside of me and keep me turning until i was too slow, I straightened out and tried to get as fast as i could to create some kind of separation. He got within 400 and stayed there for several minutes, all the while I'm rolling, wing dips and juking to avoid his rounds. Finally i stretch the distance to 1000 and he breaks off.

Then afterwards I get the "typical running 51" insults. My question is, what else could I have done in that situation? Seems to me I used my plane's strength's i.e. speed, instead of playing into his hand by turning with him. 

At your speed with the Spit16 going faster than you the Spit would likely not be able to match your initial turn rate or radius but if you don't hit it before you become defensive again after the first overshoot and your speed is lower then you'll have a harder time extending away to reset the fight.

[mthrockmor]

Speed and overshoot. Spits are like F-16s in that they can pull some serious Gs, great turn rate. Most Spit drivers want to pull high Gs, they are begging to pull high Gs, they don't think it's a real fight unless they pull 9 Gs. The overshoot helps them get what they want, which is to dump tons of E...I mean pull Gs.

Ink et al have some great thoughts on how to do it.

Boo

[morfiend]

Good point Morf, not just for P-38s but also the aircraft with opposite prop rotation.

 Darn dislexia, I meant turn the spit right in my first sentance! Of course this would be opposite if it's a spit14,yak or tyffie/temp.



   

[The Fugitive]

Darn dislexia, I meant turn the spit right in my first sentance! Of course this would be opposite if it's a spit14,yak or tyffie/temp.



   

THANKS! you know how many spit fights I lost today???? 



 

[morfiend]

After rereading my first post....  I got that totally backwards!

  First off the P38 driver had a habit of turning left even though it dosent matter which way you turn a 38 because of lack of torque so I suggested he force the spit16's to turn right against it;s torque.

  Unfortunately for me I have a difficult time telling left from right and often get them mixed up!

          I hope that clears that up......




    

[morfiend]

THANKS! you know how many spit fights I lost today???? 



 

  I dont believe you at all!!


   Did I tell you I cant tell up from down either?


   

[The Fugitive]

  I dont believe you at all!!


   Did I tell you I cant tell up from down either?


   

Follow Guppy's 38 for a bit. He'll show you "down" and you should be able to figure out up from there.   

[Guppy35]

Funny part is I seem to do ok in slow fights against most 16s because they'll drop a wing faster then the old 38G.  Seems like most Spit drivers forget that vertical bit and get into flat turning fights.

[katanaso]

After rereading my first post....  I got that totally backwards!

  First off the P38 driver had a habit of turning left even though it dosent matter which way you turn a 38 because of lack of torque so I suggested he force the spit16's to turn right against it;s torque.

  Unfortunately for me I have a difficult time telling left from right and often get them mixed up!

          I hope that clears that up......

    

I explain this very thing to people as well.  Not just against Spits, but against any plane.  Make them work against their torque, or with it, depending on what you want to do.