Author Topic: Cessna wants to build entire line of aircraft in China.  (Read 931 times)

Offline Karnak

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Re: Cessna wants to build entire line of aircraft in China.
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2012, 05:58:05 PM »
I have been told that you can get whatever quality production you want out of China, from crap to just as good as from the USA or Japan, it is just a matter of how much you want to spend.  If you want quality like you'd get from the USA or Japan, well, it will cost close to what you'd pay in the USA or Japan.
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Offline MachFly

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Re: Cessna wants to build entire line of aircraft in China.
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2012, 06:27:51 PM »
I have been told that you can get whatever quality production you want out of China, from crap to just as good as from the USA or Japan, it is just a matter of how much you want to spend.  If you want quality like you'd get from the USA or Japan, well, it will cost close to what you'd pay in the USA or Japan.

I'm sure you can if they mass produce it that way.
You can't just go to a Honda dealership and ask them for a Civic for a price of an Aston and have them make you one with the same quality. So same thing here, I'm sure you can get a quality Chinese product the problem is that they have to mass produce it that way and if they don't you won't get it.
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Offline CAP1

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Re: Cessna wants to build entire line of aircraft in China.
« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2012, 03:36:30 PM »
I have been told that you can get whatever quality production you want out of China, from crap to just as good as from the USA or Japan, it is just a matter of how much you want to spend.  If you want quality like you'd get from the USA or Japan, well, it will cost close to what you'd pay in the USA or Japan.

 if it costs more, then it will, or could get so close in cost that once you add in the cost of shipping the product back here, it may cost the same or more.
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Offline Shuffler

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Re: Cessna wants to build entire line of aircraft in China.
« Reply #18 on: March 28, 2012, 04:27:18 PM »
I have been told that you can get whatever quality production you want out of China, from crap to just as good as from the USA or Japan, it is just a matter of how much you want to spend.  If you want quality like you'd get from the USA or Japan, well, it will cost close to what you'd pay in the USA or Japan.

Good luck with that. Those type companies don't exist over there because they don't have to. No one goes to china for a quality product... they go for the price.

We repair junk from china fairly often. Poor paint, poor construction, holes in the wrong place. Even with the cheap price they paid it ends up costing much more and the product delivered much later than if they had just had it bulit here in the first place.
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Offline Karnak

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Re: Cessna wants to build entire line of aircraft in China.
« Reply #19 on: March 28, 2012, 04:43:17 PM »
Good luck with that. Those type companies don't exist over there because they don't have to. No one goes to china for a quality product... they go for the price.

We repair junk from china fairly often. Poor paint, poor construction, holes in the wrong place. Even with the cheap price they paid it ends up costing much more and the product delivered much later than if they had just had it bulit here in the first place.
That was kinda my point.  It costs almost as much to build something right in China as it does here.  China only has a couple of advantages over the US when it comes to costs, labor and lack of environmental/safety regulations.  Chinese goods do have additional shipping costs.  When it comes down to it, wages and regulations only make up a portion of the cost of manufacturing and the higher the quality you are aiming for the lower the percentage they make up.

I recall reading one American textile manufacturer's comment that the price Walmart was demanding he sell his textiles for wasn't doable even if he literally did not pay his employees, as in $0.00/hr.  People focus on wages and Chinese manufacturing as though that is the entire story and it is much more complex than that. An automotive parts manufacturer said that to make it worth it to move manufacturing from the USA to China he had to see at least, IIRC, a 60% reduction in cost due to all of the other problems brought on by such a move and that a 60% reduction was rarely obtainable.
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Offline Rolex

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Re: Cessna wants to build entire line of aircraft in China.
« Reply #20 on: March 28, 2012, 07:02:30 PM »
Ocean shipping costs are insignificant compared to trucking costs inside the U.S. It costs way more ship a box of rocks from L.A. to Houston than it does to ship it across the ocean.

I've started importing some products from China. It was a little scary at first, since these transactions are paid up front by the buyer (me). My experience has been good. You have to clearly explain the quality requirements you expect.

I've had a maker tell me prior to shipping that a product didn't meet the quality expectations. We juggled things to other OEM makers and everything shipped on time. They could have shipped the product, but they offered me a choice of a complete refund and an apology instead.

The number of Chinese companies producing quality products is growing every year. You have to know someone or learn where to go. Japanese companies have been building manufacturing facilities there for two decades now. At first, the products were distributed only domestically in China, but the quality has improved dramatically as a newer generation of workers and management have "grown up" being conscious of quality requirements for global sales. The older generation simply didn't care because they grew up in a government-driven environment of communism where they were paid the same regardless of the job or the quality of their work or service.

There's a common joke in China about companies selling to American buyers vs. Japanese buyers. The U.S. buyers take a cursory, 2 second look at a product and say it looks fine, he only cares about the price, while the Japanese buyer spends hours studying and testing the quality and cares less about the price.

Bottom line is that the quality I get is about the same as from the U.S. at about 70% less cost. I have to make some adjustments to products sometimes, but that cost isn't much. I also have less bureaucratic headaches shipping from China than from the U.S. There's just too much U.S. government interference now in my simple transactions. I'm treated like a criminal by the TSA and banks for buying and shipping products from the U.S. I have a choice, so I'm exercising that choice to buy somewhere else. The Chinese government doesn't make me do anything to buy and ship from China. There is no incentive for me to buy from the U.S.

The U.S. dollar has devalued and all these transactions in China are in dollars, so I get an added bonus of another 30% off from the price a couple of years ago.

Anyway, that's my first-hand experience.

Offline icepac

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Re: Cessna wants to build entire line of aircraft in China.
« Reply #21 on: March 28, 2012, 10:51:21 PM »
The hot market is selling american stuff to the chinese who want quality american goods.

In the early 90s we were shipping containers full of used and new watercraft because buying direct from japan was more expensive than buying from america.

Offline Bodhi

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Re: Cessna wants to build entire line of aircraft in China.
« Reply #22 on: March 29, 2012, 12:42:14 AM »
Ocean shipping costs are insignificant compared to trucking costs inside the U.S. It costs way more ship a box of rocks from L.A. to Houston than it does to ship it across the ocean.

I disagree, atleast on the premise that I just shipped a 20 foot seatainer to Brisbane and the total cost of shipment not including packing was roughly $10K.  The funny thing is, instead of loading here in New Orleans, they trucked it to LA and loaded it onto a ship there.  Total cost in the break down for that, $1250.00, that is included in the $10K shipping cost.  Had I insisted on a New Orleans departure, it was another $3K to transit the canal.

It may be different going to mainland China, but my experience has been that the cost of sea shipping is very very high, especially when weight get's up there as a simple cube can only way so much before you start shipping a whole lot of air inside that box.
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Offline Rolex

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Re: Cessna wants to build entire line of aircraft in China.
« Reply #23 on: March 29, 2012, 01:33:29 AM »
There are probably differences based on the line used or ports. Just like airline prices for the same distances can be all over the place depending on frequency of flights over a route? It costs me twice as much to fly to Hawaii than it does all the way across the ocean.

I can ship a 20' container of equipment from LA to Tokyo for about $1,800, including all charges except for customs clearance.

Brisbane from LA is about $2,800.

The cost is the same up to the max weight of the container. 10,000 lbs. costs the same as 30,000 lbs.

You must be shipping some high-value, high-tariff items?

Offline TheTopBloke

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Re: Cessna wants to build entire line of aircraft in China.
« Reply #24 on: March 29, 2012, 07:18:44 PM »
As a pilot in the real world, I find this incredibly disturbing. They wonder why their sky catcher isn't catching on. It's built in China. I had one old timer talk smack about stuff built in China, then wonder why some people wouldn't go near the new sky catchers. I had to remind him, built in China. Oh.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2012, 07:47:13 PM by TheTopBloke »

Offline MachFly

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Re: Cessna wants to build entire line of aircraft in China.
« Reply #25 on: March 29, 2012, 08:10:59 PM »
As a pilot in the real world, I find this incredibly disturbing. They wonder why their sky catcher isn't catching on. It's built in China. I had one old timer talk smack about stuff built in China, then wonder why some people wouldn't go near the new sky catchers. I had to remind him, built in China. Oh.

It can't be that bad. After all their Mig-15s are higher quality than Russian.
"Now, if I had to make the choice of one fighter aircraft above all the others...it would be, without any doubt, the world's greatest propeller driven flying machine - the magnificent and immortal Spitfire."
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flew Spitfires, Hurricanes, P-51s, P-47s, and F-4s

Offline Tupac

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Re: Cessna wants to build entire line of aircraft in China.
« Reply #26 on: March 29, 2012, 10:11:57 PM »
As a pilot in the real world, I find this incredibly disturbing. They wonder why their sky catcher isn't catching on. It's built in China. I had one old timer talk smack about stuff built in China, then wonder why some people wouldn't go near the new sky catchers. I had to remind him, built in China. Oh.

Ive seen a bunch of skycatchers here at Sun N Fun. I'm fairly impressed.
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Offline icepac

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Re: Cessna wants to build entire line of aircraft in China.
« Reply #27 on: March 30, 2012, 09:19:15 AM »
Tell Kermit that while he sits on the Napier Sabre, that someone else will be getting a Tempest airworthy before him.