limit the tiger and tiger 2

[guncrasher]

this is actually two wishes but they are related.  but I wish at least one of them to be considered.

I wish there was a limit of only 1 either tiger or tiger2 that can spawn at a vh base.  the number is unlimited if you spawn somewhere.  if the first tiger 1 or 2 goes more than 1k from the base then another can up.  it was ridiculous yesterday having several tiger 2 at one base sitting on concrete "defending".

I saw the knights attack a base and the tiger2 promply run and land his kills.  when the hangar was camped the campers were killed 1 by 1 with regular tanks spawning just like it should be done.  once all the attackers on base were killed then the tiger 2's promptly spawned again to "defend" while sitting in concrete.

the second wish is that you lose some perks when upping a tiger 1 or 2 and just sit on your own base.  or just go within let's say 1k and then run back.   I would say about 5% or 10% of of the perk value at the time you upped, of course this would be reduced based on whichever perks you get for your kills.

this would really stop the sit on the concrete that it seems lots of players do.  this will make it comparable to upping a perked airplane where there's a chance you wont make it back and lose your perks.  with a tank you just .ef even if damaged and get your full perks to up another again.


semp

[Butcher]

I agree for once

[Tank-Ace]

The thing is that GV's cannot defend THESELVES from aircraft. They HAVE to rely on flackers, and on other aircraft. And even then, if someone spots them and decides to make a bomb run, they are helpless.

What if a small darbar suddenly apears? Sorry, but untill those arses go land, I'm not going to up more than a panther. If you want to pay me back that 5-10% of my Tiger II's perk price for landing, then I'd be fine. What if I up a Tiger II, and spend my time fighting attackers that are almost on base. Am I supposed to drive 2000yds round trip just so I can land without loosing perks?


The perk price of GV's are not affected by their vulnerability to aircraft, just as an aircraft's perk price is not affected by its vulnrability to AA fire from the ground. Aircraft have more of an impact on GV's than GV's do on aircraft.

The biggest issue is that even  150mm armor of a Tiger II doesn't give it any more protection against aircraft, while the 500mph speed of a 262 DOES make it harder for GV's to kill, simply because its harder to hit. In addition to this, aircraft can be given guaranteed protection from ground fire simply by climbing. However from the instant he spawns up, a GV is guaranteed to be under the threat of air attack untill the instant he lands.

So in addition to the GV drivers being under CONSTANT threat, you want to penalize perk tank drivers for being cautious? The only way that could even possibly work is if perk tank drivers broke even when bombed within 1000yds of the base, regardless of circumstances. They don't gain anything, and they don't lose anything.

[oakranger]

The thing is that GV's cannot defend THESELVES from aircraft. They HAVE to rely on flackers, and on other aircraft. And even then, if someone spots them and decides to make a bomb run, they are helpless.


What if a small darbar suddenly apears? Sorry, but untill those arses go land, I'm not going to up more than a panther. If you want to pay me back that 5-10% of my Tiger II's perk price for landing, then I'd be fine. What if I up a Tiger II, and spend my time fighting attackers that are almost on base. Am I supposed to drive 2000yds round trip just so I can land without loosing perks?


The perk price of GV's are not affected by their vulnerability to aircraft, just as an aircraft's perk price is not affected by its vulnrability to AA fire from the ground. Aircraft have more of an impact on GV's than GV's do on aircraft.

The biggest issue is that even  150mm armor of a Tiger II doesn't give it any more protection against aircraft, while the 500mph speed of a 262 DOES make it harder for GV's to kill, simply because its harder to hit. In addition to this, aircraft can be given guaranteed protection from ground fire simply by climbing. However from the instant he spawns up, a GV is guaranteed to be under the threat of air attack untill the instant he lands.

So in addition to the GV drivers being under CONSTANT threat, you want to penalize perk tank drivers for being cautious? The only way that could even possibly work is if perk tank drivers broke even when bombed within 1000yds of the base, regardless of circumstances. They don't gain anything, and they don't lose anything.

GVs have their Icon range shorten to make it hard for the AC to spot them. If you are asking to de-perk GVs, then it will be a Tiger I and II fight all around.  Come to think of it, why the hell are some GV even perked in the first place? 

[Chalenge]

You want to penalize GVs for being smart enough to know that bombs will kill them?

-1

First reason is that a Tiger II doesnt have to move off of the concrete. A Tiger II can kill up to 7k away and probably further. In breaking a camp the Tigers are not supreme due to reload times which is why its not a good idea to use one that way. A Tiger defending a maproom almost requires a bomb but its easy enough to kill a Tiger with a Firefly or M18 or Panzer or anything else inside of 800 yards.

I have scored a kill on a Tiger II from 10k with an M4-75 by hitting it so many times the tracks fell off. It can be done.

[Tank-Ace]

GVs have their Icon range shorten to make it hard for the AC to spot them. If you are asking to de-perk GVs, then it will be a Tiger I and II fight all around.  Come to think of it, why the hell are some GV even perked in the first place? 

I'm not asking for that. But semp wants to even further penalize the GV'ers. And sorry, but the shortened GV icon range is a bit irrelevent to what I posted.

Is it true or false that, despite the reduced icon range, GV's are still significantly more vulnerable to aircraft than aircraft are to GV's?

Is it true or false that a the only action a Tiger II driver can do to keep from being killed by a bomb is sitting on concrete (asking for help isn't an action, its having others act on your behalf, and still doesn't give you a good chance to come through)?

Is it true or false that, despite the reduced icon range, an aircraft hell bent on killing the Tiger II would be able to do it without undue difficulty?

Is it true or false that realisticly thre is no way that the Tiger II can kill the aircraft before the aircraft drops his bombs?


GV's can't fight aircraft on anything even remotely approaching even terms, and the only thing they can do to give themsevles a good chance of survival is camping on the concrete. Yet Semp still isn't happy, he wants to force perk tank drivers to ensure that they can't reach the saftey of concrete before an aircraft drops his bombs.


Why should a perk tank be at the mercy of aircraft? Why should upping a perk tank entail more risk than upping a perk aircraft of the same price, despite the fact that GV's have less of an impact on the game, and are less unbalancing?





Challenge, I'm a bit skeptical of the 10k range engagment of a Tiger II. I'm guessing you were on a hill, firing down on him, as there is not a chance in hell you had line of sight out to 10k from ground level, at least not unless you were on a beach or something.

Also supporting my theory that you were on a hill, is that the sight picture for the M4's optical sight does not allow you to aim out to 10k. However, being on a hill increases the distance you can aim at, as you don't have to send your shell out at as great an angle to hit a target at the same distance, since your shell has more time to fly forward before it hits the ground, as you are higher up.

But even so, a Tiger II would be no more than a dot at 10k out, and I find it a bit doubtfull that you were actually achieving aimed hits or even near misses on the Tiger II, especially since your aim point moves with each shell you fire. At best, you were just lobbing a ton of shells in his general direction, and only disabled his tracks through pure dumb luck.

[guncrasher]

well oakranger, it just happened that I was the only aircraft anywhere around.  and if you want to up a perked gv then it should also run some risk of losing some perks like it happens with airplanes.   look at the b29 you can go up to 40k and you can still find caldera up there ready to shoot you down.  perked tanks should also have a risk of losing some perks even if siting on it's own base.  way too many people up a tiger 2 just to sit on concrete when there's a gv fight.

as for this comment you made "Why should upping a perk tank entail more risk than upping a perk aircraft of the same price," how can a tiger 2 sitting on his own base be at risk right now of losing any perks?

and oakranger perhaps you should look at the statistics for the tiger 2.  it has almost a 12 to 1 kd which is not surprising.  but what you may find surprising is that out of 382 times it has been killed less than 100 have been by an airplane.  and even if you look at some of those airplane kills some look very suspicious as they were little more than proxies.  and if you look even closer the tiger2 has almost as many kills of airplanes as it has been killed by them.

which brings it back to the same.  most people that up a tiger 2 will just sit on concrete.


semp

[Chalenge]

Challenge, I'm a bit skeptical of the 10k range engagment of a Tiger II.

I had no idea I was shooting at a Tiger. He had no idea I was even shooting at him except when he got hit. I did it twice to him but the second time he stayed on concrete. There was an M3 sitting right next to me popping out supplies. Just as he came up in his third Tiger I finished killing off all the hangars and a mudhen killed his last Tiger. I do this regularly. The M4-75 is the best shelling tank in the game right now. With just one resupply it can completely take down a field and all guns. The base doesnt even have to flash under the right circumstances.

My guess is you are skeptical because you dont understand how it can even happen. On the map that has the popular TT island in the middle I can sit at the NW TT vbase and kill the entire base to the south without moving off the base and without AFAC. You can be skeptical about that but I have film of doing it and witnesses so happy that I can do it that they continued to resupply me for two hours as I kept it flat.

Its not hard.

[JDOD]

If the Person in the Tiger II is too focused on enemy GVs and is not focused on the enemy aircraft he can sill be bombed if he is not fast or careful enough.

 What if your the only person on the Vbase defending and you have a few aircraft and some GVs trying to take the base.Your Closest and greater threat would be the GVs, so you take some of them out. Once you've got them some enemy aircraft are the greatest threat what do you do, stay there and get bombed or End Sortie and up a flack? I would get a Flack and dispatch those Aircraft. Once that's done Guess who is coming back for more in their GVs. So you grab your tiger once again. GVs all Gone aircraft are back. end sortie and re-up another flack.

If you get penalised for ending sortie on the concrete in a Tiger then this person lost some perks for defending a base.

If your the one attacking, Well then work together.Have someone play bait or get his attention while someone else goes in flanks him and shots him from behind.If you get a Good Shot on him well he has been disposed of and I doubt he would up another, but rather another tank with less armore and easier for a few enemy GVs.

[Spikes]

It is all about coordination. Bomb them. When they tower, move in on the base. Shut the VHs down.

[HighTone]

You will never get rid of Tank Ace and GT101 sitting on the concrete. GV'ers don't want a fight. They want a danger less "kill".

[Butcher]

You will never get rid of Tank Ace and GT101 sitting on the concrete. GV'ers don't want a fight. They want a danger less "kill".

It happens, you have to coordinate airstrikes with ground vehicles, this is the only way to stop a tard upping a King Tiger and sitting on concrete and not moving.

[oakranger]

You will never get rid of Tank Ace and GT101 sitting on the concrete. GV'ers don't want a fight. They want a danger less "kill".

GT101 is afraid to leave concrete because i kept killing him in his spawn camp tiger tank.   

I'm not asking for that. But semp wants to even further penalize the GV'ers. And sorry, but the shortened GV icon range is a bit irrelevent to what I posted.

Is it true or false that, despite the reduced icon range, GV's are still significantly more vulnerable to aircraft than aircraft are to GV's?

Is it true or false that a the only action a Tiger II driver can do to keep from being killed by a bomb is sitting on concrete (asking for help isn't an action, its having others act on your behalf, and still doesn't give you a good chance to come through)?

Is it true or false that, despite the reduced icon range, an aircraft hell bent on killing the Tiger II would be able to do it without undue difficulty?

Is it true or false that realisticly thre is no way that the Tiger II can kill the aircraft before the aircraft drops his bombs?


GV's can't fight aircraft on anything even remotely approaching even terms, and the only thing they can do to give themsevles a good chance of survival is camping on the concrete. Yet Semp still isn't happy, he wants to force perk tank drivers to ensure that they can't reach the saftey of concrete before an aircraft drops his bombs.


Why should a perk tank be at the mercy of aircraft? Why should upping a perk tank entail more risk than upping a perk aircraft of the same price, despite the fact that GV's have less of an impact on the game, and are less unbalancing?





Challenge, I'm a bit skeptical of the 10k range engagment of a Tiger II. I'm guessing you were on a hill, firing down on him, as there is not a chance in hell you had line of sight out to 10k from ground level, at least not unless you were on a beach or something.

Also supporting my theory that you were on a hill, is that the sight picture for the M4's optical sight does not allow you to aim out to 10k. However, being on a hill increases the distance you can aim at, as you don't have to send your shell out at as great an angle to hit a target at the same distance, since your shell has more time to fly forward before it hits the ground, as you are higher up.

But even so, a Tiger II would be no more than a dot at 10k out, and I find it a bit doubtfull that you were actually achieving aimed hits or even near misses on the Tiger II, especially since your aim point moves with each shell you fire. At best, you were just lobbing a ton of shells in his general direction, and only disabled his tracks through pure dumb luck.

About the only thing that can be done are: 1) get rid of ords, 2) un-perked the GVs, or 3) have GVs fights separate from the rest of the MA. 

[dirtdart]

On Sunday I picked a fight at a Vbase with an M-18.  Being on the Grinder map, which btw is awesome for GV fights beacuse it is such a pain for AC to get involoved, a good GV fight eventually started, with pretty balanced numbers and vehicles.  M18s and M4s vs M4s and T34s.  Then one score potato ups a tiger II and the fight ends. 

Why?

On the attacker side, no one is blowing 100 tank perks for a one way trip.  I hit this tiger II at D<400 with 76mm AP from the side and caught solid splashes, three times.  Said score potato did not see me, although I could see him looking.  I was killed by another guy, again, M18 and parked long enough to fire three time (bit too long lol). 

Answer:

1/2 to 1/4 the perks to the attacker on all GVs.  It would encourage offensive heavy tank use.  So what if all fights turn into Tiger II v Tiger II, at least there would be balanced fights.  If you have guys like C nailing dudes at 7k, what hope do thee attackers have other than to ruin the GV fight by grabbing an A20 or some cupcake move like that? 

Another one would be to change the way perks are awarded with GV, say a X2 multiplier if you spawn out of the Vbase, not on it. 

The tank exists and it is a game changer.  The only real effective way to get rid of it is to bomb it or make the driver tower from fear of bombing.  The solution is to enable its use as an assault tank through reducing the offensive cost of its use, and enabling the user to reap more perks, again to offset its cost, by doubling the reward for being offensively minded. 

[Karnak]

Is it true or false that, despite the reduced icon range, GV's are still significantly more vulnerable to aircraft than aircraft are to GV's?

Depends on the two in question, but generally false.  The Wirbelwind, a GV, can kill an aircraft before the aircraft even knows it is there.  I have had it happen to me since the icons were shortened and I don't exactly play a lot.

I would be very curious what the K/D ratio of the perk tanks and Wirbelwinds would be without the effect of the concrete sitters.  Right now the Tiger II has, by far, the highest K/D ratio of any unit.