1972 VW

[The Fugitive]

Back engined cars will not drift even on snow. When you try to make it slide, pressing gas will only cause understeer because throttling up will make the nose even lighter. Maybe with summer tires it may slide who knows - but it will slide about as well as a hammer on ice - the back heaviness will make it pretty much impossible to control.

LOL!!! ya right! If video cameras didn't weight 75 lbs and cost hundreds of dollars back then I show you some great footage of me and my bugs sliding all around parking lots in the dead of winter!

You must use the e-brake to get the back to kick out.  Once it starts sliding though, since it's so back heavy, the car will just want to swap ends.

No, all you need is a bit of G and and bit of horse power. Back then all the "hot rods" use to lay down nice long lines of rubber. I couldn't compete with that, but I could drift a nice line and as I was pretty much sideways while I did it I didn't have to have as long a line, because of the "cool" factor. 

Not that I'm suggesting going out a mess around like this. Being a young stupid kid, this is how we had fun in our little town.

[PR3D4TOR]

I thought all Finns knew about the "Scandinavian flick"...

[Seanaldinho]

I thought all Finns knew about the "Scandinavian flick"...

This is something TopGear has inspired me to perfect. 

[morfiend]

Back engined cars will not drift even on snow. When you try to make it slide, pressing gas will only cause understeer because throttling up will make the nose even lighter. Maybe with summer tires it may slide who knows - but it will slide about as well as a hammer on ice - the back heaviness will make it pretty much impossible to control.

 


  Well growing up in Canada and having driven a few bugs,a fiat X19 and the odd corvair I can tell you it's possible to do donuts,thats what we called it not drifting,in the winter with a rear engine car. the problems happen when you get off the power and it decides to swap ends on you.

  The bugs being somewhat taller than a corvair or the fiat will roll alot easier if the rear tire grabs ahold of anyhing. Rolled an envoy epic in a field once and I ended back on the wheels....Good thing it had no glass and the doors were welded shut!


   Ah the things you do when your invincible...errr a teenager!


   

[Seanaldinho]

   Ah the things you do when your invincible...errr a teenager!


   

  You mean Im not invincible?       

[morfiend]

You mean Im not invincible?       

 Ask yourself that in 30 or 40 years!


   

[nrshida]

I think the 72 has IRS and MacPherson strut? The earlier ones were tricky when sideways because the swing axle suspension tended to tuck under, however the roll centre is above the centre of gravity.

Ah happy days, winding those large diameter steering wheels from lock to lock on crappy tyres in the wet. Splendid.

Good first car, read Elford and aspire to a 911 in later life!  

[MrRiplEy[H]]

LOL!!! ya right! If video cameras didn't weight 75 lbs and cost hundreds of dollars back then I show you some great footage of me and my bugs sliding all around parking lots in the dead of winter!

And you had regular summer tires right? No traction whatsoever. In those conditions you might make the bug slide but it will be about 100x more difficult than in a regular front engine car like the Mazda Miyata. The second option is of course that your bug has more horsepower than the regular model, then it can break the rear wheel traction before the car starts to understeer.

It might be difficult to understand for someone who has no experience in winter driving with spiked tires. When you start to accelerate or break, the studs in the tires extend out from the tire. Normally they're partially hidden inside the rubber to prevent road wear and noise. So when you press gas in a beetle at winter, following things will happen:

The engine revs up. The vehicle will start to accelerate moderately. The weight of the vehicle shifts to the back axle even more than it already is. The studs in the rear wheels extend to give more traction. The reverse of that happens in the front which gets lighter and the studs retract even more. Combined with the lesser friction multiplier due to lower front weight the result is a heavy understeer behaviour.

Fundamentally speaking a rear engined car is one the worst possible choices for drifting. Only thing worse would be fwd or a four wheel drive with a rear engine

[nrshida]

Fundamentally speaking a rear engined car is one the worst possible choices for drifting.

And conversely arguably the most versatile and rewarding for a skilful driver.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

And conversely arguably the most versatile and rewarding for a skilful driver.

Umm.. no. The drifters choice would be a Mazda Miyata instead of a buggy 100 times out of 100

If you're talking about general driving like Porsche, at winter it's pretty horrible due to understeer. On the track the same thing if it has power, it will understeer on throttle. Other than the understeer behaviour they can be nice drivers, yes.

[nrshida]

You're talking about drifting, I am not.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

You're talking about drifting, I am not.

I don't fully agree with you. A mid engined car like Honda S2000 or a Ferrari is definately the drivers choice.

I have been contemplating about getting a Porsche 911 as a daily driver myself. But I'm worried about the winter behaviour, I don't want to end up sliding out of the road when the nose hits the first slush or snow buildup in the center lane. The new models do have the PSM but I have no personal experience how well it works in practise.

[nrshida]

I don't fully agree with you. A mid engined car like Honda S2000 or a Ferrari is definately the drivers choice.

I have been contemplating about getting a Porsche 911 as a daily driver myself. But I'm worried about the winter behaviour, I don't want to end up sliding out of the road when the nose hits the first slush or snow buildup in the center lane. The new models do have the PSM but I have no personal experience how well it works in practise.

I used to think that too, about the mid engine. My Brother is the money of our family. He has one 1951 VW (I've got a 1950), two 1957 356, a 1965 SWB 911, and has had a 993 and I've been 'forced'   to drive them all (but the 356s). The 1965 911 stopped me in my tracks and made me rethink everything I thought I knew about car design.

It's hard to explain the sensation, especially to someone younger but the ability to steer the car with subtle throttle inputs adds a whole new dimension.

If you are passionate about driving and have average or above reflexes and understanding then you really should give it some serious consideration. I'd recommend you'd buy a copy of this book first and read it twice. Don't be concerned about the Winter, that's where the fun starts  

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Porsche-High-performance-Driving-Handbook-Elford/dp/0760327548/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1338713539&sr=1-3

A quote:

"The 911 is perhaps the most maligned car ever built. Anytime car enthusiasts get together they tell horrendous stories of 911s spinning or leaving the road backward. Any black marks on the guard rail around freeway exits are automatically attributed to out-of-control 911s. Curiously, few, if any of these stories are recounted by 911 drivers themselves. They usually come from people who assume that because of their rear weight bias, 911s automatically spin the moment conditions are anything but ideal. The truth of the matter is that although the early 911s were a little more difficult to drive than 'conventional cars'... once you master the technique, you can do things with a 911 that, if not impossible, are certainly much more difficult with other cars". - Elford.

[Gustav]

I don't fully agree with you. A mid engined car like Honda S2000 or a Ferrari is definately the drivers choice.

the S2000 is mid engined?

[nrshida]

Well they like to say so because it is quite far back, but I still call it front-engined myself