Panzer III please

[Butcher]

I can't find any mention of IS-1's at Kursk.

Mostly T-34s and T-70s.

There were SU-122's, however, and some Churchills, KV-1s, and SU-76s.  I've read some mention of SU-152s, but only a few participated.

Source is quite sketchy on it, Osprey IS-2 Heavy Tank 1944-73 quotes "It is not clear if any IS-1 tanks were actually issued to combat units. In the event, it was decided to rebuild most of them as IS-2s, at and at least 102 were reconfigured with the 122mm gun"

The more I read the more unlikely IS-1/2 were ever in any defensive operation especially at Kursk, they were posted strictly in reserve, its also quite clear it was most likely NOT an IS-1 but in fact an IS-2 that would of been faced, and far after December 1943.

It was decided the 85mm of the IS-1 proved to be no good, so they tested the 122mm gun which later was installed on the IS-2 on a Panther captured at the Kubinka Testing grounds near Moscow. at 1500 yards where it penetrated the front AND rear hull of a Panther!

Not quite sure if this is believable or not, but the IS-2 production began in December 1943 where 103 IS-1 and IS-2 were b uilt.

In this case the grossdeutschland division was one of the first units to face IS-2's and exchanged shells with Tigers, around may 1944 is the early I can see any combat being done. IS-2's were held in reserve strictly as a breakthrough tank since numbers were not yet available they were used as the main spearhead tank from 1944 to attack heavily fortified german positions.

[Tank-Ace]

It was decided the 85mm of the IS-1 proved to be no good, so they tested the 122mm gun which later was installed on the IS-2 on a Panther captured at the Kubinka Testing grounds near Moscow. at 1500 yards where it penetrated the front AND rear hull of a Panther!

I find that HIGHLY unlikely, unless they removed the engine and all internal components. I mean theres not a chance in hell that the round would penetrate the front hull, the bulkhead separating the crew compartment from the engine, the engine itself, and then the rear of the tank.

[Butcher]

I find that HIGHLY unlikely, unless they removed the engine and all internal components. I mean theres not a chance in hell that the round would penetrate the front hull, the bulkhead separating the crew compartment from the engine, the engine itself, and then the rear of the tank.

Its the russians, it could of been used as a propaganda piece - or simply over exaggeration by the testing grounds officer.

[Tank-Ace]

Its the russians, it could of been used as a propaganda piece - or simply over exaggeration by the testing grounds officer.

You mean sorta like how the 122mm 'penetrated' the turret of a captured Tiger II at over 2000yds  ?

Or like how the T-34/85 'countered' the Panthers and Tiger I's?



It always cracks me up when people go around saying how IS-2's knocked out dozens of Tiger II's at over 2000yds, since its both impossible from the front, and so improbable as to be almost impossible.

[Butcher]

It always cracks me up when people go around saying how IS-2's knocked out dozens of Tiger II's at over 2000yds, since its both impossible from the front, and so improbable as to be almost impossible.

Actually this is well known on multiple times, poor construction caused quite a few problems, as I said the Tiger II Captured was in fact plagued with so many welding cracks they were a bit surprised when a 85mm round knocked the tank out from the front.
Factories that were using labor from other countries were sabotaging the tanks, as I said ^ poor welding was one way to disable a Tiger II, the armor plates were poorly welded which under any kind of stress from a 122mm round for example would easily penetrate or buckle the armor in only a handful of shots.

What we have in game is far different then real life, they were trying to beef production on tanks in the closing months - instead of properly building the tanks they were rushing some of them and the rushing was what got so many knocked out.

Russians were building tanks in factories using Russian people, Same as Americans were building American tanks, Germans however used forced labor - someone posted the document a while back of another Tiger II captured and tested in Moscow, it was shown to have serious welding flaws, enough the Russians disregarded the Tiger II completely as being to poorly constructed to bother even building a design to beat it. They figured a few hits was all it needed to knock the tank out, not sure what caliber was needed, but they emphasized pressure on the armor plate would cause it to buckle.

Edited: this is just from Wikipedia alone without actually even seriously digging for info on the Tiger II:
During August 1944, a number of Tiger II tanks were captured by the Soviets near Sandomierz and were soon moved to their testing grounds at Kubinka. The Soviet team gave the opinion that the tests revealed the tanks to be severely defective; the transmission and suspension broke down very frequently and the engine was prone to overheating and consequential failure. Additionally, the Soviets opinion was of deficiencies in the armor after firing many anti-tank rounds at the same target. Not only did they report that the metal was of shoddy quality (a problem not particular to the Tiger II—as the war progressed, the Germans found it harder and harder to obtain the alloys needed for high-quality steel), but the welding was also, despite "careful workmanship", extremely poor. As a result, even when shells did not penetrate the armor, there was often a large amount of spalling, and the armor plating could often crack at the welds when struck by multiple heavy shells, rendering the tank inoperable.Also they reported A-19 and BS-3 can penetrate hull front weld joint at 500m,and turret front at 1000-1500m.[39][48]



When I say what we have in game is different, we have a perfect Tiger II without any flaws what so ever, it was quite rare to see a German tank built so late in the war not have some kind of issue due to sabotage.

[Tank-Ace]

Dozens at 2000m in a single engagment? I guarantee neither gun could penetrate the front of a Tiger II at 2000m, even with the crappy armor. And even if they knocked out a few, the Tiger II's would still tear the crap out of them with their KwK 43's. Especially at long range?

[Butcher]

Dozens at 2000m in a single engagment? I guarantee neither gun could penetrate the front of a Tiger II at 2000m, even with the crappy armor. And even if they knocked out a few, the Tiger II's would still tear the crap out of them with their KwK 43's. Especially at long range?

You are thinking the Germans had any Veteran tankers left, consider how late in the war it is - those gunners might not exactly be combat veterans with years of service unlike early in the war. The Gun was fine as it could easily knock out tanks at 2000m, problem AGAIN is the fact the Tiger II could not withstand hits, while IS-2 would just chug along.

[Tank-Ace]

Well considering it was issued to the most experienced crews available, and no tank in WWII save another Tiger II made using high-quality steel and good welds could take a direct hit from the KwK 43, even at 2000m, I'm faircly certian that an even-numbers engagment at 2000m would result in a loss for the soveits.

I mean there is litterally no area where the Tiger II is inferior to the IS-2 save for manuverability. And thats even counting the typically pretty poor steel used.

A 122mm might cause spalling and crack welds after repeated hits to the same section of armor on a Tiger II, but it would just simply penetrate an IS-2.

[Butcher]

Well considering it was issued to the most experienced crews available, and no tank in WWII save another Tiger II made using high-quality steel and good welds could take a direct hit from the KwK 43, even at 2000m, I'm faircly certian that an even-numbers engagment at 2000m would result in a loss for the soveits.

I mean there is litterally no area where the Tiger II is inferior to the IS-2 save for manuverability. And thats even counting the typically pretty poor steel used.

A 122mm might cause spalling and crack welds after repeated hits to the same section of armor on a Tiger II, but it would just simply penetrate an IS-2.

Only one hit was needed to disable a Tiger II, one, if both shoot at same both both were knocked out. Russians produced thousands of IS-2's vs not even 500 Tiger IIs, easy to see a pair of IS-2 vs one King Tiger, the Tiger loses vs one IS-2 lost.

[Tank-Ace]

You're not hearing what I'm saying.

At 2000 yds, a group of IS-2's would be INCREDIBLY unlikely to knock out, disable, or kill dozens of Tiger II's.


Why?

At 2000 yds, theres a chance a Tiger II wouldn't be crippled by a 122mm hit even with crappy steel, so its not a guaranteed kill, even if a shell strikes a joint.

At 2000 yds, a direct hit on an IS-2 equals a kill with the KwK 43.

German optics are superior, and the balistics of the KwK 43 are highly superior to those of the 122mm.

King Tiger fires more than twice as fast as an IS-2, needing only 10 seconds to load a round, as opposed to the 25 or 30 seconds for an IS-2.



So, the Tiger II's would have a CHANCE at surviving a direct hit, even if its not a GREAT chance, the IS-2's really don't, and the Tiger II's out-shoot the IS-2.


So again, at 2000m, a group of IS-2's is not going to knock out dozens of Tiger II's, and come away with a tactical victory. Sure, they might knock out a dozen or two, but the losses of IS-2's would probably be numbering up over 50.


Also, when the hell did dozens (as in multiple dozens of Tiger II's) bump into a large group of IS-2's? I can't find a documented encounter at anything greater than company-level.

[StokesAk]

Why don't we just get HTC to make a deal with WoT.

When you up a tank in AH, you play a game in WoT, then all of these problems would be solved.

[Fish42]

Why don't we just get HTC to make a deal with WoT.

When you up a tank in AH, you play a game in WoT, then all of these problems would be solved.

ah no thanks

[Butcher]

You're not hearing what I'm saying.

Also, when the hell did dozens (as in multiple dozens of Tiger II's) bump into a large group of IS-2's? I can't find a documented encounter at anything greater than company-level.

You really did not read anything I said, go back and read up. Tiger II's did not stand toe to toe with IS-2's, one direct hit from a IS-2 was enough to DISABLE a Tiger II. True the 88mm can penetrate a IS-2, however one round was enough from an IS-2 to DISABLE a Tiger II. Why? Poor welding and craftmanship. You dont' seem to realize the armor was NOT the quality steel it should of had, instead they used a low grade steel. So in this case the armor is not as strong as you want to believe, however I have plenty of source to prove this, you have NO proof what so ever, only by what the stats of the tank are in perfect condition. Except in wartime there is a shortage of everything at this point: HIGH grade steel, Gasoline hell even ball bearings were in short supply.

I proved the Steel grade quality was POOR - this leads to poor armor protection - add POOR welding on top of that means an easy kill for an IS-2 simply by disabling the Tiger with one hit, doesn't matter if the 88mm can hit and kill an IS-2 it only needed one shot and POOF goes tiger II.

You keep arguing over and over and not understanding the Tiger II did NOT stand up to IS-2 due to the defects, only thing going for the Tiger II at this point was its 88 L/71 other then that it only took one hit at times to disable it completely.
You think it would cause a "Small fracture" which is not the case, POOR steel leads to poor armor protection. It makes perfect sense that an IS-2 disables a Tiger at 2000meters simply with this lack of armor defect, which was a common problem.

Secondly you keep thinking Tiger II's were only driven by Aces - actually I can show plenty of source saying this isnt the case. Late in the war, Veterans are dying left and right - Here's an example:

"The Tiger II's 8.8cm gun could be deadly with a well-led and well-trained crew. However, LT. Col. Bill Hamberg (Army) commander of a tank battalion from the 5th armored division during WW2 remembers "As the war was nearing December 1944, I noticed that the accuracy of a German Tiger firing steadily decreased. On a number of occasions when my tanks presented easy targets to Tiger tanks, they were unable to hit our vehicles. It was obvious to me the Germans no longer had the time to train their tank crews in basic fundamentals of tank gunnery."


"As the war progressed, Germany was forced to reduce or no longer use certain critical alloy materials in the production of armor plate, such as nickel, tungsten, molybdenum, and manganese; this did result in lower impact resistance levels compared to earlier armor.[51] Manganese from mines in the Ukraine ceased when the German Army lost control of this territory in February 1944. Allied bombers struck the Knabe mine in Norway and stopped a key source of molybdenum; other supplies from Finland and Japan were also cut off. The loss of molybdenum, and its replacement with other substitutes to maintain hardness, as well as a general loss of quality control resulted in an increased brittleness in German armor plate, which developed a tendency to fracture when struck with a shell. Testing by U.S. Army officers in August 1944 in Isigny, France showed catastrophic cracking of the armor plate on two out of three Panthers examined.[52][53]

Basicaly, (and assuming I correctly remember basic metalurgy from my degreee!) Steel is iron mixed with a small ammount of carbon to make it harder. Different alloys of steel are created with different proportions of carbon and the addition of other small quantities of fancy materials -for example Chromium, Tungsten, Molybdenum... Here's a quick explanation based on the steels used in bicycles. If you don't have access to these materials, some of which were quite exotic at the time, you can't make steel as strong without choosing different materials -which might lead to altogether different properties, e.g. higher weight, more fragmentation, harder to weld/manufacture..."

Read the book Tiger Tanks by Michael Green, tells you everything you need to know about Tiger I and II.
it gives countless details on the armor when it was good/bad.

[Tank-Ace]

You really did not read anything I said, go back and read up. Tiger II's did not stand toe to toe with IS-2's, one direct hit from a IS-2 was enough to DISABLE a Tiger II. True the 88mm can penetrate a IS-2, however one round was enough from an IS-2 to DISABLE a Tiger II. Why? Poor welding and craftmanship. You dont' seem to realize the armor was NOT the quality steel it should of had, instead they used a low grade steel. So in this case the armor is not as strong as you want to believe, however I have plenty of source to prove this, you have NO proof what so ever, only by what the stats of the tank are in perfect condition. Except in wartime there is a shortage of everything at this point: HIGH grade steel, Gasoline hell even ball bearings were in short supply

OK well first off, we're talking about a 2000m engagment range, when penetration for the 122mm has dropped off to about 115mm or so. Now I'm no expert, but I'm fairly certian that if the average Tiger II could take a hit from a US 90mm at close range and keep going, then its going to be able to take a hit from a 122mm at 2000m.

The 122mm isn't some god-cannon that retains massive kenetic energy at long range. Its mass helps it maintain kenetic energy better as speeds decrease compared to a smaller round, yes, but its not like ONE hit is going to crack seams and kill all the crew members at 2000m.

Even the Russians said it took multiple hits to actually crack the damn things. And they also commented on the exelent craftsmanship.

I proved the Steel grade quality was POOR - this leads to poor armor protection - add POOR welding on top of that means an easy kill for an IS-2 simply by disabling the Tiger with one hit, doesn't matter if the 88mm can hit and kill an IS-2 it only needed one shot and POOF goes tiger II.

2000m, enough said.

You keep arguing over and over and not understanding the Tiger II did NOT stand up to IS-2 due to the defects, only thing going for the Tiger II at this point was its 88 L/71 other then that it only took one hit at times to disable it completely.

You keep missing the part where the 122mm really lacked the nessecary energy at 2000m to ensure a kill or even a disabled vehicle on the first hit, when the 88mm L'71 didn't have the same problem.

You think it would cause a "Small fracture" which is not the case, POOR steel leads to poor armor protection. It makes perfect sense that an IS-2 disables a Tiger at 2000meters simply with this lack of armor defect, which was a common problem.

It makes perfect sense that an IS-2 COULD disable a Tiger II at 2000m, but even MOST, not all, being disabled on the FIRST hit at 2000m is incredibly unlikely.

Poor quality steel isn't the same as cardboard. Its still 150mm of still relatively hard metal, or 180mm on the turret.

Secondly you keep thinking Tiger II's were only driven by Aces - actually I can show plenty of source saying this isnt the case. Late in the war, Veterans are dying left and right - Here's an example:

"The Tiger II's 8.8cm gun could be deadly with a well-led and well-trained crew. However, LT. Col. Bill Hamberg (Army) commander of a tank battalion from the 5th armored division during WW2 remembers "As the war was nearing December 1944, I noticed that the accuracy of a German Tiger firing steadily decreased. On a number of occasions when my tanks presented easy targets to Tiger tanks, they were unable to hit our vehicles. It was obvious to me the Germans no longer had the time to train their tank crews in basic fundamentals of tank gunnery."

At 2000m, its not going to be a quick engagment. Infact, I'm skeptical of the 122mm's abilities to put multiple rounds on a target at 2000m without misses, and I'm HIGHLY skeptical of their ability to do it in the first two shots or so.

Even 2 rounds from an IS-2 is going to give enough time for a Tiger II to have fired off 5 rounds, and knowing that the accuracy of the gun is not of concern, we can assume that after about 10 rounds (between 3 and 5 rounds from the IS-2's), the gunners would have aquired the range, and would be able to land hits.

"As the war progressed, Germany was forced to reduce or no longer use certain critical alloy materials in the production of armor plate, such as nickel, tungsten, molybdenum, and manganese; this did result in lower impact resistance levels compared to earlier armor.[51] Manganese from mines in the Ukraine ceased when the German Army lost control of this territory in February 1944. Allied bombers struck the Knabe mine in Norway and stopped a key source of molybdenum; other supplies from Finland and Japan were also cut off. The loss of molybdenum, and its replacement with other substitutes to maintain hardness, as well as a general loss of quality control resulted in an increased brittleness in German armor plate, which developed a tendency to fracture when struck with a shell. Testing by U.S. Army officers in August 1944 in Isigny, France showed catastrophic cracking of the armor plate on two out of three Panthers examined.[52][53]

Tendency to, and also this gave no range of the test firing. It could have been 50m for all you've quoted. An impact at 250m is a lot different from an impact at 2000m.

Find the ranges for those tests, and the caliber of weapon impacting the armor, please.

[Butcher]

Tendency to, and also this gave no range of the test firing. It could have been 50m for all you've quoted. An impact at 250m is a lot different from an impact at 2000m.

Find the ranges for those tests, and the caliber of weapon impacting the armor, please.

Range of those tests was 1500 meters, I believe I stated above used on a Panther G, also the same testing ground used the IS-2 on a King Tiger - again at 1500 meters not 50 as you want to believe.
Whether the documents are authentic is hard to tell, why would the Russians entirely ignore the King Tiger? My guess is probably because the IS-3 was being developed - and because of the extremely low numbers of the King Tiger - whether its propaganda its hard to tell.
Fact is the German tankers (Tiger or Tiger II) Feared any SU model russian tank more then anything else including the IS-2. Specifically any SU-100, 122 and 152 models. You don't have to penetrate the armor to jam the turret ring or completely disable a tank with one hit.


You are still under the false hope the German tankers could actually hit anything at 2000m from Mid 1944 and on Read below:

"The Tiger II's 8.8cm gun could be deadly with a well-led and well-trained crew. However, LT. Col. Bill Hamberg (Army) commander of a tank battalion from the 5th armored division during WW2 remembers "As the war was nearing December 1944, I noticed that the accuracy of a German Tiger firing steadily decreased. On a number of occasions when my tanks presented easy targets to Tiger tanks, they were unable to hit our vehicles. It was obvious to me the Germans no longer had the time to train their tank crews in basic fundamentals of tank gunnery."

Veteran crew and gunner? Yep one hit could knock out an IS-2 with a well placed shot. As ^ says above after December 1944 chances of a German crew actually hitting anything is unlikely - plus with the armor statistics shown at 1500-2000 yards by the Russians - Whoever hits first wins the engagement.