German Bombers

[MK-84]

To a degree yes, but none of those units dominate the game.  Even the N1K2-J and Ki-84, which had horrid quality control, aren't modeled as wonder weapons like they are in IL-2: Sturmovik.  They use Japanese fuel and the performance resulting from that, not the post war tests on higher octane American fuel that produced much higher performance.

Add the He177 into the game by the numbers and it will utterly dominate the B-17, B-24 and Lancaster, likely becoming the most common bomber by a large margin.

So perk it then

[Karnak]

So perk it then

Having to perk something that was, in reality, a dismal, mediocre piece of crap so that it doesn't dominate successful units strikes me as a sign that something is seriously wrong.

[Butcher]

Having to perk something that was, in reality, a dismal, mediocre piece of crap so that it doesn't dominate successful units strikes me as a sign that something is seriously wrong.

Explain the Tiger II then? HTC is developing the vehicles as if they were in tip top shape without bugs or issues - assuming they were ever fixed in case of the He-177 they were.

If there isn't a blend of Arcade and realism people would simply be frustrated by common problems like for example on a Tiger II the transmission broke down constantly.

Imagine if someone rolled off base 25 feet then suddenly the engine died, forcing them to either get supplies or ditch and lose 150 perks without even firing a shot?

[Karnak]

They were never fixed in the He177, which is why Heinkel kept working on the He277 secretly.  The He177A-5 was better than the earlier models, but still far from acceptable, still much worse than the always brought up in He177 threads B-29A started at.

[Tank-Ace]

Tiger II is highly perked, and wails the crap out of every other GV it meets, except MAYBE the M18 (haven't played, don't know what the situation is). I don't think theres really anything that could dominate the the plane set, fighter or bomber, in the same way the Tiger II dominates the GV set.

And yet the Tiger II also had dismal reliability. Yeah, it was pretty well armored, even counting the poor steel, up untill late summer of 44 when things REALLY went down hill. Yeah, the best-armed tank of the war. But IIRC, the average distance traveled before a break down of some sort was only about 80 miles.

[MK-84]

Tiger II is highly perked, and wails the crap out of every other GV it meets, except MAYBE the M18 (haven't played, don't know what the situation is). I don't think theres really anything that could dominate the the plane set, fighter or bomber, in the same way the Tiger II dominates the GV set.

And yet the Tiger II also had dismal reliability. Yeah, it was pretty well armored, even counting the poor steel, up untill late summer of 44 when things REALLY went down hill. Yeah, the best-armed tank of the war. But IIRC, the average distance traveled before a break down of some sort was only about 80 miles.

No, it wails the crap out of M18's too

[Butcher]

They were never fixed in the He177, which is why Heinkel kept working on the He277 secretly.  The He177A-5 was better than the earlier models, but still far from acceptable, still much worse than the always brought up in He177 threads B-29A started at.

Yeah but if HTC Allows the Tiger II in the game, despite its numerous problems which were never worked out - the He-177 has a pretty good chance to be added in game as well.

I argued against the Tiger II when it was suggested to be added,  mainly the reliability issues of its transmission and everything else - since it was added to Aces High I can't argue against adding the He-177 since frankly there isn't an argument.

He-177 might of never got the bugs fixed completely, neither did the Tiger II, however with the war already lost - there was no time really to work the bugs out, it was simply straight out of the factories into combat, where being a pillbox worked out for it.

[Debrody]

Karnak has some strange abomination towards the 177.

[Tank-Ace]

Karnak has some strange abomination towards the 177.

Do you mean abhorence?

[tunnelrat]

Do you mean abhorence?

He probably means abhorrence...

 

 

[Karnak]

It rubs me the wrong way.  That the best heavy bomber in the game would be one that was historically insignificant and mostly a disastrous program for the Germans.  It is like having the best fighter turn in the game be the P-40 or LaGG-3 and not the F4U-4.

[Debrody]

Look, Karnak, The A3s and A5s werent nearly as bad as the early series (what were total death traps, i agree). Also... 4-hogs are one of the very best planes here, how many of them were built? Did they played a larger role in the war? Stepping forward, there is an aircraft called P-47M. How many were built? What were the reports of its reliability? Yet its one of the bestest BnZ fighters in game, totally dominates the eny5 pony for example. Got my point, Sir?

See, this reasoning is invalid, Sir. Even tho i agree with you that the Ju-188 is higly above the He-177 priority-wise, even i (the laic) can bring up better reasons: the 188 played a much larger role in the war, was produced in larger numbers, could fit on many special events, is high performance, had many variations, etc etc.
   The point is, whos opinion you would like to change, Tank Ace's or HTCs? You know, there is one you surely cant change and an other what might be flexible.
 

[Karnak]

As I've said in the past, the He177 is clearly a potential addition as it obviously meets all of the criteria.  I would simply make some of the modeling choices that are subjective, not the raw performance numbers that are fixed and it must hit, a bit weak.  Give the engines and fuselage a lower damage limit, give it a bit lower of a speed and G limit before it breaks.  Not sure about how to handle its bomb load as I've never seen a good list of what it carried and every list seems to be different.  I frequently see 11,000 and 13,000lbs listed (jag88 is saying over 15,000lbs, though his use of the "88" number in his name makes me question his reliability) and I have seen much lower numbers as well.

[Butcher]

As I've said in the past, the He177 is clearly a potential addition as it obviously meets all of the criteria.  I would simply make some of the modeling choices that are subjective, not the raw performance numbers that are fixed and it must hit, a bit weak.  Give the engines and fuselage a lower damage limit, give it a bit lower of a speed and G limit before it breaks.  Not sure about how to handle its bomb load as I've never seen a good list of what it carried and every list seems to be different.  I frequently see 11,000 and 13,000lbs listed (jag88 is saying over 15,000lbs, though his use of the "88" number in his name makes me question his reliability) and I have seen much lower numbers as well.

I have a few books on the He-177 if you want me to send you to help you research it.

[Lusche]

 Give the engines and fuselage a lower damage limit, give it a bit lower of a speed and G limit before it breaks.

I would oppose that very much. The advantage the He 177 had over the other bombers during the Steinbock raids was that it could attain a much higher velocity in a shallow dive to avoid AA fire and night fighters. That doesn't read to me like a structurally weak machine, not surprising if taking into account it was being designed as a true dive bomber (even though that would have pushed things a little too far).

I understand where you are coming from and actually share the same concerns, but I would be all against artificially weakening an airframe to adjust it's usage in Aces High. Our Me 262 hasn't unreliable engines in routine operations either, they are just very prone to damage - and this could be the way for a possible HE 177 to. A heavy bomber with only two, but quite fragile engines would suffer in it's popularity. And beyond that, there's always the balance tool of perk points.


Of course, all that problems can be avoided if we would get the Do 217 instead of the He 177