Author Topic: Remove the fantasy - Ar-234  (Read 15350 times)

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Remove the fantasy - Ar-234
« Reply #30 on: July 02, 2012, 07:27:40 PM »
Probably for the Arcade aspect of aces high, same reason the P51D has both bombs and rockets.


Unlike the Ar234 having a rear gun, the P-51D did use rockets and bombs so that's not a really good analogy.

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Offline Butcher

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Re: Remove the fantasy - Ar-234
« Reply #31 on: July 02, 2012, 08:06:52 PM »
Unlike the Ar234 having a rear gun, the P-51D did use rockets and bombs so that's not a really good analogy.

ack-ack

500lbs and Rockets I can see happening, but I was strictly saying 1000lb and rockets.

The reason I pointed this out - I went through countless photos of P-51D's in action, I can see 75gal drop tanks and rockets, I can see 500lb bombs and rockets, but not 1000lb bombs and rockets.

« Last Edit: July 02, 2012, 08:12:30 PM by Butcher »
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Remove the fantasy - Ar-234
« Reply #32 on: July 03, 2012, 12:06:07 AM »
The existence of photos is not a requirement in any case.

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Offline Denniss

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Re: Remove the fantasy - Ar-234
« Reply #33 on: July 03, 2012, 03:16:40 AM »
No serious publication claims this gun package was factory-installed nor used operationally, it's not even mentioned in Ar 234B aircraft manuals anymore.
But you never know what unit hacks were done to those aircraft, I even heard of He 219 with a MG 15 gun an a third crew member to protect the bottom rear area.

Offline curry1

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Re: Remove the fantasy - Ar-234
« Reply #34 on: July 03, 2012, 06:34:58 AM »
I'm just here to say how grateful I am for the type of people we have here.  I bet some of you could write your own books.
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Offline guncrasher

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Re: Remove the fantasy - Ar-234
« Reply #35 on: July 03, 2012, 08:22:09 AM »
the funny thing is the airplane gets used so little,  it isn't worth the changing anything.


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Offline Karnak

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Re: Remove the fantasy - Ar-234
« Reply #36 on: July 03, 2012, 09:28:58 AM »
the funny thing is the airplane gets used so little,  it isn't worth the changing anything.


semp
BS.  When it gets updated it needs to be changed anyways.
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Offline lyric1

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Re: Remove the fantasy - Ar-234
« Reply #37 on: July 03, 2012, 09:59:15 AM »
the funny thing is the airplane gets used so little,  it isn't worth the changing anything.


semp

Well one person looses a 262 to a F3 mode IL-2.

F3 mode gone on IL-2.

Based off of that yes.


Offline lyric1

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Re: Remove the fantasy - Ar-234
« Reply #38 on: July 03, 2012, 10:01:00 AM »
No serious publication claims this gun package was factory-installed nor used operationally, it's not even mentioned in Ar 234B aircraft manuals anymore.
But you never know what unit hacks were done to those aircraft, I even heard of He 219 with a MG 15 gun an a third crew member to protect the bottom rear area.

If that was the case we do have rules about field modifications.

Offline Ruah

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Re: Remove the fantasy - Ar-234
« Reply #39 on: July 03, 2012, 10:22:57 AM »
Field mods are not production - so - they are not included (as far as I understand it).  Otherwise there would be a lot more options for German planes.


I read Lyrics post. . . damn well researched and hard to top.  I hope the Gods take a gander and consider revision.

As for the other points, I reiterate that i do agree with the removal of the formation option, and with the attack. . although it does create more fighter perk based planes and takes away a jet-bomber which could be a bad game policy.

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Offline Butcher

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Re: Remove the fantasy - Ar-234
« Reply #40 on: July 03, 2012, 10:26:17 AM »
The existence of photos is not a requirement in any case.

(Image removed from quote.)

So you can't show any proof 51's had 1000lb bombs and rockets? Yes Photos are not a requirement, its simply proof it didn't happen.
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Offline Babalonian

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Re: Remove the fantasy - Ar-234
« Reply #41 on: July 03, 2012, 12:53:48 PM »
So you can't show any proof 51's had 1000lb bombs and rockets? Yes Photos are not a requirement, its simply proof it didn't happen.


It could I think is the arguement/conclusion.  Weather it actualy did or not, seeking absolute proof, will take a large investment of time into scanning through AARs or other documents/reports/logs that could/would contain information on actually loadouts used during combat in WWII.  If one had to start anywhere though, I would wager my bet with the later pacific mustangs, they were probabley the heaviest laden for (long-range) ground support and escort missions.  But again I would wager that's more paperwork to go through than vacation time I'll have in the next 2 years (if it exists).

I think it would be better to argue for a 10-rocket gun package, I haven't looked it up but I think it was the most the 51 could carry if it removed the larger pylons used for DTs and Bombs, but I forget if that was purely Korean era or not.

Given the capabilities of the P-38 and P-47 models though, I've never really understood why the 1000lbers + 6rkts P51 combo is such a curious issue in AH.  In addition, it's not like the heavily laden mustangs don't suffer from their loadout selection.
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Remove the fantasy - Ar-234
« Reply #42 on: July 03, 2012, 02:53:10 PM »
Given the capabilities of the P-38 and P-47 models though, I've never really understood why the 1000lbers + 6rkts P51 combo is such a curious issue in AH.  In addition, it's not like the heavily laden mustangs don't suffer from their loadout selection.

Its just another attempt to be clever. We know from photographs that Mustangs operated with thousand pounders and rockets in Korea which by implication alone... The absence of a photograph is not proof.

We know also from photographs that different squadrons had the larger fuel tanks (39th FS, 20th FG for instance) yet those are not allowed.
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Offline Butcher

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Re: Remove the fantasy - Ar-234
« Reply #43 on: July 03, 2012, 03:19:13 PM »
It could I think is the arguement/conclusion.  Weather it actualy did or not, seeking absolute proof, will take a large investment of time into scanning through AARs or other documents/reports/logs that could/would contain information on actually loadouts used during combat in WWII.  If one had to start anywhere though, I would wager my bet with the later pacific mustangs, they were probabley the heaviest laden for (long-range) ground support and escort missions.  But again I would wager that's more paperwork to go through than vacation time I'll have in the next 2 years (if it exists).

I think it would be better to argue for a 10-rocket gun package, I haven't looked it up but I think it was the most the 51 could carry if it removed the larger pylons used for DTs and Bombs, but I forget if that was purely Korean era or not.

Given the capabilities of the P-38 and P-47 models though, I've never really understood why the 1000lbers + 6rkts P51 combo is such a curious issue in AH.  In addition, it's not like the heavily laden mustangs don't suffer from their loadout selection.

I have a very extensive and large collection of AAR's and books concerning just about everything, those I have gone through show exactly that - Korean era P51's did carry rockets and bombs, however I cannot find any photo or AAR saying it carried it during WW2.

I take all my knowledge from these books, even AAR's you can't rely on entirely - for example I posted a humerous one a while back about the Marines on Midway and their AAR of the battle of midway. Some said the Zero were doing 450mph, etc however this is the kind of information that keeps me searching for more.
I enjoy researching specific details, like the 1000lb/rocket, however I have not come across any AAR's as of yet (then again I literally have thousands to go through), but I use the pictorials first since they can give away vital information like what squadron or such, it cuts down on the research time.

I rely 100% on facts, I go through two books and if both give me a general "Same answer" I have to believe this is the common grounds, I really have nothing else to go on, you can't look at wikipedia and say "oh yeah its here, this must be correct" I use everything I have to determine whats correct or not.
In the case of Lyric, showing the Ar-234 did not have rear guns, I have to absolutely agree - the books and AAR's I do have, do NOT show it having rear guns, might be one or two that did, however of all the photos taken, why don't none of them have rear guns?

There may not be any photos of the 51, however I just use pictures to "minimize" my research time - its a tool really, if I can see a 51 carrying 1,000lbs and rockets I can find out what squad it is, then go looking for AAR's specifically or buy the book on that squad so I can say "hey it did in fact carry it" and show the proof, otherwise as of right now I am completely against it .
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Remove the fantasy - Ar-234
« Reply #44 on: July 03, 2012, 04:25:18 PM »
"The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." Meaning that the burden of proof is opposite of your implication. This is exactly why Lyric has done his in depth research.
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