Deputies shoot, kill man after knocking on wrong door

[Shuffler]

This is what most people don't understand, even if the police identifies themselves as police, you are not obligated to open that door for anyone (unless a search warrant is announced).  People are not required to speak to the police as part of their rights, set aside anything what a good samaritan would do to help.  I would not answer the door either at those hours.

This is off topic of course for this original thread.

Bottom line this would probably not have happened had the people that instigated everything had just identified themselves. In readin it seems they were trained not to ID themselves. This does not protect the officers as it was said. It in fact places the officers at higher risk. The guy at home may have had threats thrown his way.. by phone or otherwise and been prepared for his threatened attack. This or moany other possibilities. He may have just shot through the door in fear for his life.

It is just poor training or lack thereof that caused this person to lose their life.

I am usually behind the officers as I know it is a tough job. This however was just sinceless.

[Karnak]

There was a case in Mississippi where police entered the wrong apartment on a  no-knock and the guy there thought it was a home invasion.  He grabbed his daughter, retreated to his bedroom and got his pistol.  When the cops entered he fired, killing one of them.  As soon as the cops identified themselves he surrendered.

He was sentenced to death for that, though he has since been taken off of death row and maybe even released.

[homersipes]

okay so I am not a cop nor will I ever be a cop but I do hunt and the FIRST thing that I was taught is MAKE SURE YOU KNOW WHAT YOUR SHOOTING AT!!!!  I understand it was 130 am but there is a HUGE difference in the appearance of the 2 men.  and also I thought deadly force was a last resort??? maybe I am wrong but it dont add up to me either.

Wonder what really happened ? The story don't add up to me .

  hard to say what I personally whould have done if I were the cops, but in my opinion they should not have fired not knowing exactly what they were shooting at. 

[Slash27]

It doesn't matter whether or not they said "POLICE!" when they knocked. No normal human should open a door at 1:30 AM for someone they don't know, let alone with a gun. It's common sense.

Actually yes it does matter. It's not against the law to be dumb. The deputies made a mistake and a man paid with his life for it. You can analyze both sides but in the end the S.O. has the responsibility to go to the right damn door and you have the right to protect yourself in your home.

[MarineUS]

Actually yes it does matter. It's not against the law to be dumb. The deputies made a mistake and a man paid with his life for it. You can analyze both sides but in the end the S.O. has the responsibility to go to the right damn door and you have the right to protect yourself in your home.

And the officers have the right to protect themselves if they feel threatened.

Would you NOT feel threatened if someone pointed a gun at you?

----

And what police officer isn't trained to ID themselves???? That's a 101 type thing there. Hell you can learn that from watching COPS...hell it doesn't even have to be COPS, you can learn it from Bones, CSI, NASH, hell even Walker Texas Ranger. Trying to blame it on poor training it like trying to pour purified water into the ocean and then saying  the clouds are evaporating only your water due to poor chemical reactions.

I don't care who you are, where I'm at, what you do - if you point a weapon at me you WILL be dropped. If not, I'll die shooting.


Yes. Defend yourselves in your homes, but for the love of all that is holy; don't be a moron about it.


If you think you're gonna open your door at 1:30 AM, point a gun at someone and expect them to run off - you're living in a fantasy land.
He's lucky it was the Police. If it had been a thug they would have not only killed him, but the girlfriend he was supposedly watching movies with as well.


Trying to look like a badarse sure pays off.




EDIT: "Last resort" comment: When you're in the area of a potential murder suspect and someone points a gun at you - that IS your last resort.

[sunfan1121]

Set phasers to stun next time?

[Slash27]

And the officers have the right to protect themselves if they feel threatened.

Gee, I'll try to keep that in mind.

[Shuffler]

And the officers have the right to protect themselves if they feel threatened.

Would you NOT feel threatened if someone pointed a gun at you?

----

And what police officer isn't trained to ID themselves???? That's a 101 type thing there. Hell you can learn that from watching COPS...hell it doesn't even have to be COPS, you can learn it from Bones, CSI, NASH, hell even Walker Texas Ranger. Trying to blame it on poor training it like trying to pour purified water into the ocean and then saying  the clouds are evaporating only your water due to poor chemical reactions.

I don't care who you are, where I'm at, what you do - if you point a weapon at me you WILL be dropped. If not, I'll die shooting.


Yes. Defend yourselves in your homes, but for the love of all that is holy; don't be a moron about it.


If you think you're gonna open your door at 1:30 AM, point a gun at someone and expect them to run off - you're living in a fantasy land.
He's lucky it was the Police. If it had been a thug they would have not only killed him, but the girlfriend he was supposedly watching movies with as well.


Trying to look like a badarse sure pays off.




EDIT: "Last resort" comment: When you're in the area of a potential murder suspect and someone points a gun at you - that IS your last resort.

You are wrong on so many levels. The cops here were the perps. You come to my house you better ID yourself I don't care who you are or think you are. Being a cop does not make you above the law. If nothing comes of this other than the cops murdering this guy then folks will be shooting first and asking questions later... you know like the cops do.

You said earlier he could have looked out the window.... if I see 2 folks in uniform and they wont ID themselves then they are not cops.... it's easy to get a uni.

The folks in the county where this happened are now in more danger from both sides.

[lambo31]

And the officers have the right to protect themselves if they feel threatened.

Would you NOT feel threatened if someone pointed a gun at you?

----

And what police officer isn't trained to ID themselves???? That's a 101 type thing there. Hell you can learn that from watching COPS...hell it doesn't even have to be COPS, you can learn it from Bones, CSI, NASH, hell even Walker Texas Ranger. Trying to blame it on poor training it like trying to pour purified water into the ocean and then saying  the clouds are evaporating only your water due to poor chemical reactions.

I don't care who you are, where I'm at, what you do - if you point a weapon at me you WILL be dropped. If not, I'll die shooting.


Yes. Defend yourselves in your homes, but for the love of all that is holy; don't be a moron about it.


If you think you're gonna open your door at 1:30 AM, point a gun at someone and expect them to run off - you're living in a fantasy land.
He's lucky it was the Police. If it had been a thug they would have not only killed him, but the girlfriend he was supposedly watching movies with as well.


Trying to look like a badarse sure pays off.




EDIT: "Last resort" comment: When you're in the area of a potential murder suspect and someone points a gun at you - that IS your last resort.

MarineUS, I don't know you but I would take it from your post that you yourself are a cop, which is fine if you are. My brother, Daryl, was a cop and I had the up most respect for him. Daryl would have given even me a ticket if he caught me breaking the speed limit, but in the same turn he had enough integrity to admit when a cop made a bad decision and was in the wrong and that's what made him a good cop IMHO. Whether these cops in this particular case were poorly trained or not I don't know, they made a bad decision that killed a man that could have easily been avoided. I live in Georgia, I have a concealed weapons permit, I have weapons, I live in a good neighborhood with no problems in the 8 years I've been here. If some one comes to my door in the middle of the night I will have a weapon in hand ready to defend my family, myself and my home.

Lambo

[bustr]

At the point that a policeman crosses a line where he looks at his job as combat in a warzone, as a combat soldier must to perform his duty to country. Instead of Service and Protection of the Public Trust that policemen sign on to do. Then all of us citizens good or bad become potential enemies in that policeman's, now quasie soldier's mind. Because his warzone is our homes, public spaces, and free country.

He does not have the right to cross that line as a servant of the public trust, even if he is a combat veteran. The combat veteran's job "was" war and to shoot first or fail his service to protect his country and his life as a combat asset. A policeman is not trained as a combat soldier nor is a combat asset. Combat occupation and active martial control of a foriegn country is not Service and Protection of the Public Trust in America. To confuse that will result in dead innocent  American citizens on U.S. soil.

Serving the public trust and shooting first for self preservation are not compatable mind sets or legal concepts out side of a war zone. Otherwise we the innocent free citizens are forced into a warzone by our police not of our making, at their sole descretion, and us citizens denyed any recource but to their state of mind and temperance in each moment. Feels good this way if you are the policeman and not the citizen though. Since being a policeman seems to be inerpreted as becoming an extra constitutionaly superior citizen by a minority resulting in giving the majority a black eye and eroded citizen trust.

The actions and decisions of the dead citizen are being used to over shadow policemen not operating to first ensure the protection of all citizens and their public trust. Being a policman is a choice with no expectation of safety in the line of duty other than the protection provided by established chains of procedures. Being a citizen is the expectation of safety from policemen who identify themselves in all interactions as gaurdians of the public trust to be trusted with our lives. Criminals do not announce themselves in the dark to citizens just like criminals do not follow gun laws when knocking on your door at any time.

MarineUS,

Here is a psych profile question that shows up on government tests in one from or another that everyone with an 8th grade education knows to lie and check off "no" to.
------------------------------------------
Do you enjoy shooting people and observing anyone you think is stupid by your personal standards being harmed for being less than your expectations of the human race and of yourself?
------------------------------------------

Never met anyone who checked yes on that one at any point in their governemt careers at any of their required reEvals. And not all government groups can afford sending everyone in for a face to face where verbaly lieing to that will be caught.

[MarineUS]

I'm not a cop but I know it's stupid point a weapon at one.

Point a weapon at an officer, expect the repercussions.

They were in uniform, opening the door with a gun pointed out of it like a wannabe badarse was stupid on this idiots part.

[Flench]

And the story end's , don't never pull a weapon unless you plan on using it .

[bustr]

The saddest part is why that specific citizen felt he had to answer his door in that neigborhood at that time of night carrying his gun. His strong fear of personal harm by one nature of assailent got him killed by the deputys.

If the deputys didn't want to announce themselves, and being seen through the window or the peep hole in the door would compromise the secrecy they felt necessary to apprehending their suspect. It's not all unlikely only a single deputy knocked with his trappings of office covered up while his back up was just out of sight in the dark covering him and the door.

If the deputy's trappings of office could have been seen through the door peephole or window, I suspect how the door was opened would have been very different. Which goes to the heart of a policeman is resposible for the saftey of "us" citizens during the execution of "his" duties which very often are lethal. The law is not created for the convienience or saftey of policemen. Operational procedures are for the saftey of policemen and protection of the public from fatal mistakes by policemen.

I worked with an Alameda County Sherif's Deputy here in Cal for some years. Having a single deputy cover his identifying markings to perform a knock so a suspect would open the door was one strategy to see who was there if they were not sure while on a foot chase in bad neighborhoods. It was risky some of the time becasue in some neighborhoods you knocked on the wrong door like the deputys in this news story.  It kept knowlege of their presence to a minimum in a community with active criminals and their supporters. Going hot was the other if they were backing up state or local drug enforcment. And banging on the door while announcing they were deputys was SOP at all times to ensure thier own saftey and the "Publics Safety and Trust".

Some of you simply enjoy the sport of laughing at the misfortunes of those you feel stupider than yourselves even if it's about their death. To which you being alive becomes the ultimite validation of your superiority post mortum.

[Rob52240]

I'm all for the 2nd amendment and protecting your house and property.

Sure seems a bit extreme to open your front door pointing a gun though...frankly not very smart.

If I was suspicious of a knock at the door, I wouldn't answer it by opening it, but by calling out 'Who is it', while maintaining a defensive position in the house with my firearm.  In reality you lose any tactical advantage by opening the door and exposing yourself.

Or another idea is maybe call 911 if your suspicious. 

It also seems strange that the police would not identify themselves if they are going to knock on the door.  I mean if it is a no-knock warrant where they have to barge in and catch everyone by surprise is one thing.  But if your going to take the time to knock on a suspected killers door why not identify yourselves as police.

My local police dept routinely knocks without announcing.  The call it a 'knock and talk'.  Basically they knock on the door and if the knob turns they force their way in and ransack the place.  They do 80 of these a year along with 80 'garbage searches' and in return they get a nice grant that pays for one officer's salary and a sqaud car.

[Shuffler]

I'm not a cop but I know it's stupid point a weapon at one.

Point a weapon at an officer, expect the repercussions.

They were in uniform, opening the door with a gun pointed out of it like a wannabe badarse was stupid on this idiots part.

The victim was not pointing at cops.... after all they did not identify themselves.

Obviously the so called cops had their guns drawn. The poor folks living in that area should shoot first and ask questions later. That is how the so called cops there do it. The folks have to defend against criminals on both sides of the badge.