Colorado Gun Demand Jumps 41%

[Shifty]

Which leads to a remarkable number of toddlers being killed. Do you see that as a good situation?
How would you fix that?

A remarkable number of toddlers are also killed because their parents leave them in locked cars in the summer, or they drown because left unattended by a pool or lake. Or some of them are just beat to death by their mother's scumbag druggie boyfriend. How would you fix that and where is the outcry for these victims?

[Shifty]

Sheesh I'm in a gun control thread this won't end well. 

[TheRapier]

Take the rock and the bow and arrow argument and put them in a real context.

By the reasoning here, Europe has psychos (unless you are saying that only the US has crazy people?) and because psychos are going to kill, they are looking for ways to kill but they don't have free and easy access to guns. So, it follows logically that we should see the same mass killings in Europe, only the psychos use rocks!!! or bows and arrows! or swords or spears or. . . .

Ok, I'm looking for these cases but wow! I don't find them!!! Isn't that interesting! I wonder why? Oh! I know their psychos just aren't innovative enough! They aren't SMART enough to get a bag of rocks and slip in to a place unnoticed because it is so EASY! It's either that or total internet failure. Suggestion, get out of the dreamland and really look at the world.

Ya see, this isn't about theory, its about what DOES happen. In the world, look at Afghanistan, Pakistan, Egypt, Syria. These places have LOTS of guns. Are they safe? Are they free? If guns = safety and freedom, what's up here? It is clear that guns by themselves don't guarantee either safety or freedom. It's the rational and educated and informed people who do that and are the most potent weapon for change that the world has ever known. Don't rely on the tool, don't rely on the rhetoric, but rather work to educate people, consider new viewpoints and LEARN from past mistakes. We aren't required to codify the past and just repeat it because all of the reasons stated. We can change it and make it better. I personally think that is what freedom really is. 

I see that you all have things well in hand. Thanks for illustrating so quickly why things are the way they are and why people will continue to die by violence in this country at a rate all out of proportion to the rest of the world for absolutely no reason but intellectual laziness. I just suggest, just for fun, let a NEW thought in. Don't just regurgitate what someone else has said into your ears. Entertain, just for a moment what would be the way to approach a law that could possibly make people safer and not infringe on the rights to own a firearm. If you were made a Senator right now, what would you do? How would you fix it?

[eagl]

A couple of road flares and a backback full of gas-filled water balloons would have killed a lot more people and possibly gotten the whole building instead of a dozen in that one room.  We ought to consider it fortunate that the killer's psychotic delusions involved shooting people in one room hoping for a showdown with batman, rather than burning or blowing up an entire building full of people.  Apparently his apartment was rigged for a fairly large explosion and fire so it's a good thing he didn't reverse his plans, and blow up the theater then barracade himself in his apartment with some guns.  That could have killed far more people without firing a single shot.

There is a darn good reason it is a crime to falsely shout "fire" in a movie theater...

[katanaso]

Just to chime in:  this type of horrible event doesn't happen with any type of regularity.  With all the guns we own in the U.S., this type of act is not a regular occurance.

Unfortunately, the world is a violent place.  We're lucky that we don't have more incidents like the OKC Bombing, or smaller, targetted bombings that other countries have.  When's the last time the U.S. had riots like they had in France a few years ago?

Now, as for the weapons used in the majority of murders, they're handguns, not 'Assault Rifles'.
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10tbl20.xls

The link to the statistics on violent crimes (non-murders) shows that guns aren't the #1 weapon:
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10tbl19.xls

This link shows that gun deaths are actually surprised by drug related deaths:
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr59/nvsr59_10_tables.pdf

As for child deaths, it's not as common as you think either.  It's just simply tragic and heartbreaking:
http://www.cdc.gov/Injury/wisqars/pdf/Leading_Causes_injury_Deaths_Age_GRoup_Highlighting_Unintentional_Injury%20Deaths_US_2009-a.pdf

The problem is that all media sensationalizes these specific, horrific events, replaying them hour after hour as if they are commonplace in our daily world.  They then bring on people to talk about gun control, and reinstating an 'Assault Weapons Ban' (AWB), but those speakers don't realize that the AWB didn't ban anything of significance. 

Then you have people who believe that you can turn a semi-auto AR or AK into a full-auto by filing down the firing pin.  Or newsfolks and politicians who think it's possible to buy grenades or rocket launchers at a gun store.  Or that a .50 BMG will take down a commercial airliner at 1.5 miles.  This is what is spread on the mainstream media news channels.

Basically, a whole lot of misinformation, and not a lot of attention to the facts, the laws, or the statistics.

When my wife first saw one of my AR15's, she thought it was illegal.  I explained that it wasn't.  She asked about the AWB.  I explained what was 'banned' during the AWB period.  Her response, never being a gun owner, or into shooting:  "That's pretty stupid.  What would it have stopped?"

Anyways, I'm always going to be in favor of being able to defend my family and myself with the most efficient means necessary.  I don't think it's right to take that option away from people because of an emotional reaction to a tragic event.

[katanaso]

You guys type too fast...Like 15 replies while I was typing one. 

[katanaso]

Entertain, just for a moment what would be the way to approach a law that could possibly make people safer and not infringe on the rights to own a firearm. If you were made a Senator right now, what would you do? How would you fix it?

I'd stop the 'war' on drugs, tax marijuana, and use the money and those resources to fight violent crime. 

[Bodhi]

The attack on assault weapons is irrational because any weapon in the hands of a determined and skilled user can kill many many people.  The key to remember on why certain segments push "assault weapons" as being evil is that they are seeking an in towards gun control.  Any little bit they can get will just mean that many more they think will be off the street. 

In the end, always remember that gun control is about an attack on the 2nd Amendment, and not just assault weapons. 

[TheRapier]

Ask yourself why no one in the US can talk about ANY kind of gun control? Isn't it EXACTLY this kind of reflexive, unthinking reaction?

Facts are your friends, wishful thinking, while pleasant, is not . From wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States

Gun-related death rates in the United States are eight times higher than they are in countries that are economically and politically similar to it. . .

In 2005, 75% of the 10,100 homicides committed using firearms in the United States were committed using handguns, compared to 4% with rifles, 5% with shotguns, and the rest with a type of firearm not specified.[37] Due to the lethal potential that a gun brings to a situation, the likelihood that a death will result is significantly increased when either the victim or the attacker has a firearm.[38] The mortality rate for gunshot wounds to the heart is 84%, compared to 30% for people who sustain stab wounds to the heart. . .
 
The incidence of homicides committed with a firearm in the US is much greater than most other advanced countries. In the United States in 2009 United Nations statistics record 3.0 intentional homicides committed with a firearm per 100,000 inhabitants; for comparison, the figure for the United Kingdom, with very restrictive firearm laws (handguns are totally prohibited, for example) was 0.07, about 40 times lower, and for Germany 0.2.

BTW, Katanaso, I agree with you I hope that doesn't cause you any concern.

[Guppy35]

Anyways, I'm always going to be in favor of being able to defend my family and myself with the most efficient means necessary.  I don't think it's right to take that option away from people because of an emotional reaction to a tragic event.

The last part of your last sentence is the key.  Every damn time something like this happens folks try to find a reason for something that has no reason.  So those who see a guy walking into a theater with an AR15 with a 100 round magazine, see a very visible thing.  How does that make sense?  In the end it doesn't.  There is no reason to have a hundred round magazine on your AR15.  The odds of 100 guys coming into your house to harm your family are kinda slim.  And at that point you probably aren't going to get them all anyway.

OK so it's a reasonable thing for scared people to point at.     Immediately the gun owners get just as unreasonable and the panic buying and 'oh they're coming to get my guns' mentality kicks in and it's just as silly as the 'take all the guns' crowd.

Lets face it.  In this country the horse is out of the barn on that one.  It's never going to happen.   Understand I've got a small arsenal in my house as I've long been interested in shooting and guns. I've got two AR15s as well.

But I'm not threatened by the discussion.  I'd like to think that folks get to vent their fears in trying to understand a tragedy that has no explanation.

In the end, the only ones who win in this are the folks in the gun industry as the panic buying drives the prices up and increases demand.

And in the end, as always this will die down as we move on to the next 'crisis'.

The beauty of that free speech bit in national discourse is you don't have to like it or participate.  Much as the 'lose my guns' crowd is quick to scream 2nd amendment, they need to remember that the 1st Amendment covers peoples right to express themselves.

Now excuse me as I go polish my AR15

[TonyJoey]

Bodhi, no doubt a skilled user can do as much damage with a handgun as an inexperienced user can with an assault weapon. But that's just it.  An inexperienced person can use an assualt weapon with a large magazine and wreak havoc. Commen-sense regulations should not bring about rants of "They're taking our guns away!!!!" A ban on high-capacity magazines would be a simple law that does not infringe on 2nd Amendment rights, and would/should not be an issue among legal gun-owners. Not only that, but it may reduce the carnage in future shootings.

Guppy beat me to it.

[TheRapier]

In the end, always remember that gun control is about an attack on the 2nd Amendment, and not just assault weapons. 

Pulleeeeeeze! By this reasoning, the best possible course is to leave guns lying around every street corner. Absolute freedom of access is not a reasonable course. We don't allow absolute freedom of access to motor vehicles!  A reasonable discourse as Guppy says is not an "attack" on anything. It is what a polite and intelligent and free society does to create itself.

Political discourse in this country has turned into demonizing the other side based on wildly fictitious arguments. I'm relatively certain that I'm not a demon and I'm pretty sure that other folks here are not either. What do we as rational people think? Can we talk? Can we disagree? Can a workable compromise be found? I think we can. I believe we can. I believe that is what America is about.

Take the blinders off. THINK

[bustr]

Legislating stupidity is the same as legislating the fitness to live in a "Class" of predetermined citizen levels.

Once a bureaucrat is given that all encompasing power in the name of protecting "We the People" from each other. We no longer have the right to self determination but, instead an unelected bureaucrat decides from day to day to enterprit the policey guidlines to choosing who is defined fit for each "Class" level. Bureaucrats are inheritly corruptable by definition and the same as you and I. Ideologicly predudical in the name of their personal vision of who's fit to be a member of the citizen body and who should be descriminated with prejudice for not fitting their arbitrary mold. And who scares them for any arbitrary reason.

We already see this fear of a less fit class of citizens being decided by some posters here. And the next logical step is legislating classes by fear with an undefined testing of fitness to satisfy that fear. Which turns everyone into unfit less than human members of the human race until they pass this undefined test to assuage the posters fear.

This leads to the following which is far more a warning about human nature and ourselves, than the edification of a man giving a surmon on a mount. Our fear of personal death causes us to judge others by the lie of measuring others to be less worthy by the virtue of their failings regardless of those same in ourselves. Think the French Revolution's Mob and Robespierre's 2 year reign of terror now called "The Terror". 7000 catholic preist were murdered during "The Terror" by not meeting the social standards of fitness for that time.

Note:
Many morality scripture lessons come from much older Hebrew Law testiments and judical actions not unlike our modern judicial comments handed down in rulings. Good moral lessons are good moral lessons and all Rabbi including the guy who walked on water studied Hebrew law.
--------------------
1 JUDGE not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
--------------------

Fear and the power of animal survival causes us to want others freedoms taken away by the sinister comfort of a Bureaucrat's promise to only judge the wicked in the name of our mutual interests. By definition we  tacitly grant unknown Bureaucrat's power as administrators over us by exercising our power of vote over our elected representatives. Who hidden from our scruitany as our surrgate hire the unknown Bureaucrat's to rule us by the power of our fears and the perversion of the laws they have enacted granting themselves immunity from their tyranny against us. The Federalist papers discussed this and the importance of the 2ndA in addressing it in it's most extream and tyrannical evolution.

Rapier,

You should really us FBI satistics and not Wiki which has an anti constitutional agenda. The vast majority of those gun realted deaths are male criminals against male criminals ages 15-29 in the inner cities of large population centers. Not against the general body in fly over country of nearly 330M people, or non criminals against non criminals shooting each other simply because they own a guns. Your personal fear of violent death by lesser human beings to your personal standards is driving your agenda. You are more dangerous to yourself driving your car based on insurance statistics. But, fear is irrational and once rooted in the memory, is cherished as a constant freind soley on your side in all situations saving your kester from the dark unkown.

[Widewing]

Er, which part of I'm not talking about banning all guns is difficult to understand? Did I say "ban target shooting because you're killing targets"? It's about reducing the death toll. Yes, admittedly psychos will find a way to kill. They will kill less if they don't have an assault rifle. How does a rational society determine when a member of that society should have access to use easily lethal force?

Let's admit that you sir are a master killer. You can kill with your hands, hell, you can kill with your eyeballs. Ok, so now, SO WHAT? What we are talking about is reducing the lethality of a nut job that DOESN'T have special training. We aren't talking about YOU, get it? Pulling a trigger is so easy toddlers can do it. Which leads to a remarkable number of toddlers being killed. Do you see that as a good situation?

How would you fix that?

You don't fix that.... How could you?

Norway: 76 killed, mostly children, in a nation with some of the strictest gun control laws on earth...

You can't legislate evil. You can't legislate crazy. Evil and crazy people have been murdering thousands of years before man began recording his history. Laws are only useful for regulating those willing to obey and prosecuting those who will not.

The over-riding issue isn't weapons, guns, bombs or otherwise... It's a culture that glorifies violence; which it promotes in popular media and makes the media moguls very wealthy. Those same moguls who scream for gun control when some screwball emulates their villains or heroes, but whom will never accept even a shred of social responsibility for those actions... Violence is a cultural issue, and guns just an easy thing to point to rather than address the core issue.

Do we logically blame the alcohol for the drunk? Do we logically blame the sun for some sunbunny's skin cancer? Let's apply genuine logic and accept the fact that we need to examine our culture(s) rather than focus on symptoms instead of the root cause disease.

[MiloMorai]

Have to repeat these words.

The over-riding issue isn't weapons, guns, bombs or otherwise... It's a culture that glorifies violence; which it promotes in popular media and makes the media moguls very wealthy. Those same moguls who scream for gun control when some screwball emulates their villains or heroes, but whom will never accept even a shred of social responsibility for those actions... Violence is a cultural issue, and guns just an easy thing to point to rather than address the core issue.