87G eny?

[Tank-Ace]

The main use for the Ju87G-2, in my opinion, is that German aircraft fans now have a German plane to shoot tanks with and will no longer be pushed into using the Il-2, Hurricane Mk IId or B-25H.

Naw, main use is special events stuff, IMO. Now we could finally run a decent Kursk scenario, minus the lack of the Yak-7B, and have both sides be roughly balanced in all ways (Allies would no longer be the only ones with a good ground-attack aircraft).

[Karnak]

Naw, main use is special events stuff, IMO. Now we could finally run a decent Kursk scenario, minus the lack of the Yak-7B, and have both sides be roughly balanced in all ways (Allies would no longer be the only ones with a good ground-attack aircraft).

Can't run Kursk still for other reasons.

In fact, never will be able to run Kursk without it being an automatic German victory I don't think.

[Rich46yo]

It doesnt have slightly superior penetration then the IL2. Thats my point. I use the exact same tactics in the IL2, despite it having more ammo. Same angles, same distance. Often shooting between 100 to 200 meters. My convergances is set to 300 and you can see Im almost always within that envelope. Same, Same with the IL2. I used to have the IL2s set to 250. Its one or two volleys, in one pass, for the kill. Ive done it easily for every tank but the T-2.

Theres no way the guns/ammo are better then the NS-37s in this game.

[R 105]

So question:


If the guns are modled correctly, why are they not as effective as they seem to have been in real life? I mean if the Ju-87G's really did use relatively shallow angles, the problem shouldn't be one of angles (as most people come in shallow).


If I had to guess, the problem lays in the damage model of vehicles, which require a certian ammount of damage to be destroyed.

Based on observation, it seems that there are two parts to the damage model, those being overall HP and components. In components, there are two separate sub-groups, those being critical and non-critical. Critical components would be engine, driver, and potentially ammunition racks, non-critical components are tracks, and turret. Each of these have a damage threshold that must be reached or exceeded for the component to be damaged. Engine seems to have a second damage threshold which results in destruction of the tank (perhaps through engine fire, or whatever other plausible cause).

It seems (again, based on obesrvation) that to destroy a tank, you must either destroy a critical component (wound the driver, or set the engine on fire), or exceed the overall damage threshold for the tank.

Each shell is also confirmed to have a set starting-damage-value, which appears to decrease with both range (decreased velocity) and armor penetrated (again, decreased velocity). The ability of the round to penetrate armor decreases with range (also due to decreased velocity).

However, the thing that doesn't make sense with this (at least to me) is that several weapons are known to fire APCBC-HE rounds, which have an HE component that explodes after penetration of the armor. IIRC, those are both Panzer IV's (with long 75mm's, I think), Panther, Tiger I and II, and the US M4's. One would think that the explosion in a confined space would do more damage than a shell or fragments of a shell ricocheting around inside the fighting compartment. This would also mean that the rounds from these tanks should do virtually the same ammount of damage regardless of the thickness of armor penetrated (because they blow up after penetration).

Could this be a bug on the T-34/76? I was at V85 spawn in a Panther in the same spot I sat at for years one shot killing almost any tank that upped except the T-34/76. I had to hit them 4 or 5 times to get a kill I noticed the same thing with other Panthers with side shots. Remember I am not the only one hitting these tanks others are shooting and hitting them at the same time as I am. Someone had a post in here about rubber bullets. Why is the IL-2 guns seem so much more effective then the JU-87-G? I do have a harder time lining up the sights in the JU-87 than the IL-2 but that is just me. I wonder if Hans Rudel had this probelm with the JU-87G guns?

[Rich46yo]

Could this be a bug on the T-34/76? I was at V85 spawn in a Panther in the same spot I sat at for years one shot killing almost any tank that upped except the T-34/76. I had to hit them 4 or 5 times to get a kill I noticed the same thing with other Panthers with side shots. Remember I am not the only one hitting these tanks others are shooting and hitting them at the same time as I am. Someone had a post in here about rubber bullets. Why is the IL-2 guns seem so much more effective then the JU-87-G? I do have a harder time lining up the sights in the JU-87 than the IL-2 but that is just me. I wonder if Hans Rudel had this probelm with the JU-87G guns?

No, he didnt.

In March of 1943, during a tank battle around Belgorod, Rudel knocked out his first tank with his new tank-busting Stuka - "... my rear gunner who said that the tank exploded like a bomb and he had seen bits of it crashing down behind us." (Hans-Ulrich Rudel).

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/gen9.htm

On the first day of the Operation Citadel, during his first mission,Rudel knocked out four Soviet tanks and by the evening, his score grew to twelve.

Rudel's squadron'ssuccess, Panzerstaffels (Tank Destroyer Squadrons) were formed.Based on his experiences, Rudel developed new tactics for Panzerstaffels. He found that the best way to knock out tanks was to hit them in the back (T-34's rear mounted engine and its cooling system did not permit the installation of heavier armor plating) or the side.

And he wasnt alone. http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=41684&page=32 Rudel was credited with 519 tank kills. The thing about the Luftwaffe is I would believe their kill counts more then I would believe any other countries. They had strict rules of confirmation, and even more, it was considered very dishonorable to credit yourself for a kill you didnt actually get. And its not like shooting fighters in the heat of dogfights. You either killed the tank on your own or you didnt.

The lack of Panther, Tiger, King Tiger, kills with the 87G further support my argument that its guns and advanced ammo just arent up to snuff. This current video http://youtu.be/7LiCL6a0_BM How can one argue that I shouldn't have even been able to get the T34 smoking? An IL2 did that.

Is the 87G killing T34s? Of course it is. But its a very common tank to come across, I know i used to kill hundreds of tanks a tour, and the G just isnt doing it very well. Ive yet to see online video of a clean, exploding, kill of a T-34 or up tank. The most Ive seen is a smoker, which is all Ive been able to achieve. Ive blown them offline, but with F3 you can come in almost totally vertical and hit the top turret flush and point blank. We dont have F3 in the arenas. Nor did the Luftwaffe. You can see from the historical gun cam video their tactics are no different then the ones we use in the game.

This was a very high velocity tungsten core Hartkernmunition ammo,  capable of penetrating up to 140 mm / 100 m / 90 degrees although this was halved at a striking angle of 60 degrees. So why did some of my shots bounce off 25mm plate at 100 to 200 m at 60 to 70% ?

I doubt this will go anywheres. For every tank hunter there are 100 tank drivers. Most players just bomb them, but they are missing the challenge of placing two perfect shots into the exact perfect place. Thats why we hunt tanks with cannon birds.

[Oldman731]

Rudel was credited with 519 tank kills. The thing about the Luftwaffe is I would believe their kill counts more then I would believe any other countries. They had strict rules of confirmation, and even more, it was considered very dishonorable to credit yourself for a kill you didnt actually get. And its not like shooting fighters in the heat of dogfights. You either killed the tank on your own or you didnt.

*stares at shiny spinner*

*swims away*

- oldman

[Rich46yo]

*stares at shiny spinner*

*swims away*

- oldman

Wahtever that means. I just got a chance against a Tiger with the 87G. The results were amusing. I'll cut the film when I can. Ended up upping an IL2 to kill it.

[Tank-Ace]

It doesnt have slightly superior penetration then the IL2. Thats my point. I use the exact same tactics in the IL2, despite it having more ammo. Same angles, same distance. Often shooting between 100 to 200 meters. My convergances is set to 300 and you can see Im almost always within that envelope. Same, Same with the IL2. I used to have the IL2s set to 250. Its one or two volleys, in one pass, for the kill. Ive done it easily for every tank but the T-2.

Theres no way the guns/ammo are better then the NS-37s in this game.

Penetration doesn't mean a large ammount of damage. You can plug away with 76mm HVAP rounds from the T-34/76 at the front of a tiger, and not get a kill. Same with the M8's 37mm; it can penetrate the front hull armor of a Panzer IV H, but you'll need a lot of ammunition.

The problem with comparing the Il-2 and the 87G is that the IL-2's are firing much faster and landing more hits. I'm sure if you compared the number of hits for each aircraft to destroy any given tank, they would be fairly close.


However, the issue is that while it was rare for an Il-2 to kill tanks with guns alone (I'm not quite sure if there is even a single reliable example of a lone Il-2 destroying even ONE tank with guns alone, much less multiple tanks), however it was not rare for the Ju-87G-2 to destroy tanks with guns alone. Infact, I'm almost certian that guns-only attacks account for 100% of tank kills achieved by the Ju-87G-2, it being armed with nothing else.


So I suppose theres actually two questions here: 1) should the Il-2 be as effective as it is, and 2) is the Ju-87G underpreforming?

It seems to be, given that a Panzer IV is much more lightly armored to the sides and rear than a T-34, which was the Ju-87G's main victem, was.



@R105: I find that HIGHLY unlikely. Unless you're firing at extreme range, a T-34 should be a one-shot-kill with the Panther's KwK 42. And the Panther is most certianly not taking multiple side shots to destroy. It seems to be the most vulnerable tank in the game from the sides.

Film or we can only narrow it down to several possibilities: 1) you're BS'ing   2) T-34/76 and Panther are bugged, yet nobody's been freaking out about it (not very likely, especially with the latter tank  3) Hitech let skuzzy try his hand at coding.

[Rich46yo]

The problem with comparing the Il-2 and the 87G is that the IL-2's are firing much faster and landing more hits. I'm sure if you compared the number of hits for each aircraft to destroy any given tank, they would be fairly close.

I shoot the IL2 just like I shoot the Hurri-D, just like I shoot the 87G. In 2 shot volleys from extremely close range. I dont have time to hit a tank more then one or two volleys. Theres another possibility, assuming you aint all BS, and thats that nobody cares cause nobody is much flying the thing. Hmmmm, both the 410 and 87G were pulled from the tour 150 stats page.

[Tank-Ace]

I shoot the IL2 just like I shoot the Hurri-D, just like I shoot the 87G. In 2 shot volleys from extremely close range. I dont have time to hit a tank more then one or two volleys. Theres another possibility, assuming you aint all BS, and thats that nobody cares cause nobody is much flying the thing. Hmmmm, both the 410 and 87G were pulled from the tour 150 stats page.

Then you're doing it wrong. I've never seen even a fresh-up panzer die to 4 rounds from an Il-2 to the side or rear. It takes more than 4 rounds from the M6 37mm gun on the M8 to destroy a Panzer in many cases, and the M8 has what is now the second best 37mm cannon in the game, behind only the BK 37 with its APCR rounds.

Very top, maybe, but I doubt that you've both perfected the art of a high AoA firing run, and still find the IID or 87G-2 inferior to the Il-2. IID is far faster, and climbs much better than the IL-2, and so would be better for high-angle diving attacks. Ju-87G is just an actual dive bomber, and better at the pull-ups.

[Tank-Ace]

Oh, and for all the people saying the 87G's guns were just fine, Hitech just said you're wrong with the Patch 4 update.

BK 37s now do more damage.

[Karnak]

Oh, and for all the people saying the 87G's guns were just fine, Hitech just said you're wrong with the Patch 4 update.

BK 37s now do more damage.

But no more penetration.

[Tank-Ace]

I don't think anyone was arguing penetration. I certianly wasn't.


I was saying that a penetration of the armor in Aces High doesn't cause as big a problem as a penetration of the armor in real life. I mean in real life, a 37mm shell bouncing around inside the fighting compartment is going to cause some rather serious issues.

[bangsbox]

I am happy so far with update. The same sit I posted in begining of this tread I now flat out killed the wirb. Though haven't tried on anyother tanks

[Rich46yo]

Then you're doing it wrong. I've never seen even a fresh-up panzer die to 4 rounds from an Il-2 to the side or rear. It takes more than 4 rounds from the M6 37mm gun on the M8 to destroy a Panzer in many cases, and the M8 has what is now the second best 37mm cannon in the game, behind only the BK 37 with its APCR rounds.

Very top, maybe, but I doubt that you've both perfected the art of a high AoA firing run, and still find the IID or 87G-2 inferior to the Il-2. IID is far faster, and climbs much better than the IL-2, and so would be better for high-angle diving attacks. Ju-87G is just an actual dive bomber, and better at the pull-ups.

"much better"? http://www.hitechcreations.com/component/option,com_ahplaneperf/Itemid,221/view,ahplaneperf/index.php Also the IL2 rolls better, converts energy better, and is far better armored.

Ive killed more panzers from the side or top with one voley of one or two shots then carter has peanuts. Heres a Tiger I killed with one shot the other day. http://youtu.be/P1UsDyKe46s After dumping off an 87G after unloading all its ammo on it and seeing it bounce off. Then I killed two panzers in quick succession.

The M8 cant get as close as the IL2 and if you cant kill a Panzer with 4 shots from an IL2 then your in the wrong business.

Again what is your in game name Tank-ace? Mines Rich54