Author Topic: F4U turn performance, flaps, the real plane, etc (discussion)  (Read 25024 times)

Offline ink

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11274
Re: F4U turn performance, flaps, the real plane, etc (discussion)
« Reply #120 on: November 13, 2012, 04:55:38 PM »
I was gonna say that is some great shade of pink nail polish :rofl

Offline bustr

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12436
Re: F4U turn performance, flaps, the real plane, etc (discussion)
« Reply #121 on: November 13, 2012, 05:09:01 PM »
You guys should start a "Stick - Throttel - Rudder - Only" deuling initiative and attempt to reasonably explore WW2 combat manuvering opposed to "Aces High Air Quake" combat manuvering as it has evolved into today due to our fly by our finger tips game style of throttels and sticks.

Granted some planes were designed to utilise flaps in combat, I doubt historicly in the goto manner we do. Now days in the MA a simple way to tell who is going to be a more involved fight. Watch them manuver on zoom and look for the flaps useage.
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline mtnman

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2438
Re: F4U turn performance, flaps, the real plane, etc (discussion)
« Reply #122 on: November 13, 2012, 06:10:29 PM »
I was gonna say that is some great shade of pink nail polish :rofl

My favorite too  :D
MtnMan

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not". Thomas Jefferson

Offline ink

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11274

Offline nrshida

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8576
Re: F4U turn performance, flaps, the real plane, etc (discussion)
« Reply #124 on: November 13, 2012, 06:36:01 PM »
His hands are far less hairy than I'd imagined for a Mountain Man :old:

"If man were meant to fly, he'd have been given an MS Sidewinder"

Offline Big Rat

  • AH Training Corps
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1605
Re: F4U turn performance, flaps, the real plane, etc (discussion)
« Reply #125 on: November 13, 2012, 10:30:23 PM »
Great since this thread, Morf has been accusing all of us hog driver's of painting our nails :(

 :salute
BigRat
When you think the fight might be going bad, it already has.
Becoming one with the Hog, is to become one with Greatness, VF-17 XO & training officer BigRat

Offline ink

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11274
Re: F4U turn performance, flaps, the real plane, etc (discussion)
« Reply #126 on: November 14, 2012, 01:01:27 AM »
Great since this thread, Morf has been accusing all of us hog driver's of painting our nails :(

 :salute
BigRat

 :rofl :rofl :rofl

Offline morfiend

  • AH Training Corps
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10443
Re: F4U turn performance, flaps, the real plane, etc (discussion)
« Reply #127 on: November 14, 2012, 02:38:02 PM »
Great since this thread, Morf has been accusing all of us hog driver's of painting our nails :(

 :salute
BigRat


   For years I've said that the corsair has bent wings to help lift it's skirt when it crosses a puddle.........Now I have definitive proof! :devil




    :salute

Offline mtnman

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2438
Re: F4U turn performance, flaps, the real plane, etc (discussion)
« Reply #128 on: November 14, 2012, 06:13:25 PM »
What can I say?

It definitely takes a skilled, gentle hand to coax full performance out of the corsair...

Ham-fisted flyers may as well move on to something else...

And like Gooss would say "Chicks love gull wings!"
MtnMan

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not". Thomas Jefferson

Offline Ardy123

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3417
Re: F4U turn performance, flaps, the real plane, etc (discussion)
« Reply #129 on: November 14, 2012, 07:01:13 PM »
What can I say?

It definitely takes a skilled, gentle hand to coax full performance out of...

[to make obvious/insert dirty joke here]
« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 07:03:03 PM by Ardy123 »
Yeah, that's right, you just got your rear handed to you by a fuggly puppet!
==Army of Muppets==
(Bunnies)

Offline Babalonian

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5817
      • Pigs on the Wing
Re: F4U turn performance, flaps, the real plane, etc (discussion)
« Reply #130 on: November 14, 2012, 08:02:55 PM »
Great post MtnMan, but I gotta know, who does your nails?  :devil


   For years I've said that the corsair has bent wings to help lift it's skirt when it crosses a puddle.........Now I have definitive proof! :devil




    :salute

Great since this thread, Morf has been accusing all of us hog driver's of painting our nails :(

 :salute
BigRat

 :rofl  :lol  :aok
-Babalon
"Let's light 'em up and see how they smoke."
POTW IIw Oink! - http://www.PigsOnTheWing.org

Wow, you guys need help.

Offline Orbitson

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 115
Re: F4U turn performance, flaps, the real plane, etc (discussion)
« Reply #131 on: November 29, 2012, 03:42:47 PM »
Great since this thread, Morf has been accusing all of us hog driver's of painting our nails :(

 :salute
BigRat

oh! until I read this thread I thought morf was losing his mind with all his talk about hog driver's painted nails..now I get it.. :bolt:
Syd*****Flying with The Floyd
By the way which one is Pink?

Offline Saxman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9155
Re: F4U turn performance, flaps, the real plane, etc (discussion)
« Reply #132 on: December 11, 2012, 12:35:35 PM »
Wow, I RoFLed seeing this is still a subject of debate after YEARS of being a subject of debate. As often as it comes up, and as often as HT has always made tweaks to the various flight models, one would think if there was a specific problem with the Corsair, it would have been addressed by now.

But what I'm referring to is (for example) that an actual F4U pilot wouldn't be able to manipulate throttle and flaps together (at all), while it's extremely simple for me to do so here.  This allows me many other options in AH than I would have in RL.  Those extra "options" mean I get what amounts to extra performance (even if the plane were modeled absolutely perfectly).

Actually, there's something the real Corsair could do that ours can't: The flaps were controlled by a spring, so if you set one or two notches they could blow up and drop down on their own as airspeed changed. So at least for the first two notches you wouldn't HAVE to manually manipulate the flaps...
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline mtnman

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2438
Re: F4U turn performance, flaps, the real plane, etc (discussion)
« Reply #133 on: December 11, 2012, 07:14:01 PM »
Wow, I RoFLed seeing this is still a subject of debate after YEARS of being a subject of debate. As often as it comes up, and as often as HT has always made tweaks to the various flight models, one would think if there was a specific problem with the Corsair, it would have been addressed by now.

I have to agree...  I think "by the numbers" the F4U itself is probably modeled about as well as possible, and I doubt that it can be rendered too much more accurately with what we have available to us today.

Actually, there's something the real Corsair could do that ours can't: The flaps were controlled by a spring, so if you set one or two notches they could blow up and drop down on their own as airspeed changed. So at least for the first two notches you wouldn't HAVE to manually manipulate the flaps...

That's what I was referring to here.

In RL, the simple fact that the pilot would have to let go of the throttle to move the flaps probably meant he only moved them a notch here and there.  Now, the F4U did have "blow-up" flaps that he could set at say 2 notches, and they'd automatically fluctuate up/down dependent upon speed.  But what are the chances he'd go beyond the two notches?  Or that if he did, that he'd continuously tweak them up/down to fine-control his plane?  I can't believe that happened much at all...

Simply letting go and moving his hand from one place to the next would have taken time, and made it unlikely he could keep up with the "adjustment" pace I keep in my fights.  Would any experienced AH pilot claim that timing doesn't matter much?  That losing a few fractions of a second here and there won't effect the outcome of a fight?  That those lost fractions of a second won't effect the success of a maneuver?  That they won't make a "possible" maneuver practically "impossible"?

I'd tend to argue that the "convenience" and ease-of-optimization the flap system gave the pilot when using only one or two notches likely resulted in extremely rare in-combat manipulation of flaps that deviated from those settings.  It undoubtedly made it easier on the pilot to use one or two notches, but less likely that he would stray from that to have used 3, 4, or 5 notches.

And if he did, it would have once again been a completely different beast than we have in AH.

I'd also point out that while that may have been "convenient", I for one don't really on the AH "auto-retract" flap feature, but quickly raise my flaps to minimize the drag imposition when I want to transition to faster flight.  That's something else that would have once again been more difficult and time-consuming to do in RL.

Sure, my flaps blow up unintentionally all the time, and that's arguably more inconvenient than a spring system would be in those instances.  Overall though, the AH pilot has a clear advantage when it comes to manipulation of the flaps (and all other control devices, practically simultaneously) than a real pilot would, and that leads to a much more "fine" level of control than could be maintained in reality.
MtnMan

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not". Thomas Jefferson

Offline Saxman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9155
Re: F4U turn performance, flaps, the real plane, etc (discussion)
« Reply #134 on: December 11, 2012, 09:05:56 PM »
I'd largely started skimming when I saw the thread descend into the standard circular argument, so I must have missed when you said it, lol.

One thing HTC could always do is program a delay on certain controls to represent the time it would take the pilot to actually move his hands to make the adjustments, and then modify it based on current G-load (I can't imagine it would be very easy to release the throttle and reach the flap control if you're in the middle of a 6G turn). Maybe it doesn't have to be an EXACT timing of how long it would take, but enough so that players don't get an instant benefit. That could address a lot of complaints about flap usage (but then add the spring-loaded flaps on plains like the Corsair and Hellcat, and autoflaps on the machines that actually had them).

What would be REALLY cool is to put an animated pilot model in the cockpit that you could actually see flip those switches and turn the dials (Star Citizen looks like it will have that). But say good-bye to your frame rates, lol!
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.