F4U turn performance, flaps, the real plane, etc (discussion)

[Greebo]

The F4Us are better in a low speed/flaps out fight than the F6F, having both a better turn rate and more stability. This seems odd to me given these planes' RL reputations, particularly regarding stability. I share Karnak's agility doubts regarding the Hurri, 110C and A-20 as well.

[bozon]

On most AH planes torque feels very moderate, even the ones that were notorious for it. If this is how it was in reality, I don't see what the big fuss was about.

The flaps are just being abused due to the ability to fly at 80 mph, full throttle+WEP and wiggle the stick around without danger of spinning out of control. In principle, when flying close to the stall, full "roll" deflection of the stick can stall the outer ("rising") wing - it never does in AH, at least not that I felt it. As far as I remember, the only plane that felt like this was the old 109 flight model that made it very tricky to fly at slow speeds unless the player had a good stick and very steady hand.

Absurdly, the old bugged mosquito with the misplaced centre of gravity felt the most "correct" to me. Sure I was campaigning to get it fixed, but even back then I said it felt how most planes should handle. It is still one of the very few planes than can be stalled violently into a spin (try stick full lower left + full left rudder and hold on to you panties).

[Big Rat]

The F4Us are better in a low speed/flaps out fight than the F6F, having both a better turn rate and more stability. This seems odd to me given these planes' RL reputations, particularly regarding stability. I share Karnak's agility doubts regarding the Hurri, 110C and A-20 as well.

Greebo,

I consider you the hellcat expert in this game from your reputation, so I take your info in high reguards here on it.  I remember the hellcat more stable at low speeds then the Corsair in game .  So this puzzles me a bit.  Granted I do not fly the hellcat a whole lot so, I'll do a bit more research. In fact I think tomorrow I'll take the squad for high alt hellcat practice rather then hog and see, nothing like high alt fighting to show stall tendencies.  Greebo, would love for you to join us if you wish.  9 central time in custom arena, PM me if interested, and I'll get you the info.  I find the same thing as you as far as turn rate flapped out at low speed between the two.

 
BigRat

     

[Big Rat]

I don't think they were stating higher speeds Big Rat, I think they were stating actual speeds. Keep in mind any F4u pilots had already undergone flight training on advanced trainers. This would be a film for advanced pilots with many hours under their belts. Just not on this type.

This would be an excellent question for those that actually taught in fighters.  Do they actually teach the "limits" when starting someone on a new fighter, do they do it with a bit of safety margin to keep them out of stalls until very familiar with the aircraft.  Rodent and Mace would be good ones to answer this question.

 
BigRat

[nrshida]

Also the departure characteristics are very important because that imposes on how close to those limits you can safely / comfortably go.

It's an interesting discussion, but I hardly feel those most qualified to comment would be disposed to do so. No one wants their favourite AH plane knobbled 

[Fud]

Interesting information and insight  

I find it an enigmatic aircraft to fly. Doesn't seem to be turning well from the inside, but when I fight someone like Fudmukkr he bends it like Beckham. But then I don't fight smart, I just try to manoeuvre in close with everything.

 

Fighting you, I had to bend it like Beckham lol <S>

[Bodhi]

I let a gentleman that I know well fly the -4 on here awhile back right before we got his bird finished.  He has also flown P-51's, P-40's, SBD's, and has tons of hours in the T-6 as well. 

His comment was that this is nothing more than a video game.  Until you have to put both hands on the stick to affect a pull out or have to be helped out of the cockpit owing to fatigue after a long demonstration flight.  Plus the reality of cockpit management in a real warbird is lost here, and that is one of the many things he harped on.  The one thing he did like though, was the ability to pull the trigger.  He went on to say it is what it is and it's intention is good, to keep the genre and interest alive while having fun. 

Point is, stop harping on what you can not fix in what is basically a game.

[Krusty]

But you can fix the stall and handling and performance of planes, if it's not correct. I'm not referring to physical fatigue as much as other elements.

When was the last time you got into a spin in a P-51? Really, turned too tightly and spun into the turn and couldn't get out for at least a few revolutions? It used to be that way. I recall even back in AH1 you could and did spin the P-51D more than the P-51B (even when lightly loaded) because of the razorback. It seems the game is improving in many ways, but devolving in other ways. It's making certain planes far easier to fly than they ever were in real life.

If it was so tiring to fly the F4U-4, does that mean it was more unstable? Or that the stick pressures were higher? Then that can translate into AH as requiring more input on the stick for the same results, or perhaps bobbing around and fishtailing like a few planes already do.


The point is: The corsairs aren't quite right. How can we fix them?

[FLS]

The point is: The corsairs aren't quite right. How can we fix them?

To fix something you have to know what is wrong. Saying they "aren't quite right" isn't describing a specific problem that can be fixed. You have your subjective impressions of a PC simulated aircraft and have read subjective impressions from people flying real Corsairs. You note that your impressions aren't the same but you haven't posted anything that's incorrect that needs to be fixed.

[Ardy123]

To fix something you have to know what is wrong. Saying they "aren't quite right" isn't describing a specific problem that can be fixed. You have your subjective impressions of a PC simulated aircraft and have read subjective impressions from people flying real Corsairs. You note that your impressions aren't the same but you haven't posted anything that's incorrect that needs to be fixed.

I had the opportunity to have some stick (limited) time in a real aircraft and it was significantly different than AH. Right off the bat, the atmosphere and all the subtle effects associated with it make stability a much greater issue than it is in AH. One of my first experiences was noticing how I over corrected for every bump/shift etc.. that the aircraft experienced.

[Nathan60]

do you really want the game to go hyper realistic, if something is only a little off shouldn't we focus on more pressing matter Like  getting the proper planes in (D.520)? or graphics fully updated? or MAPS?

[FLS]

I had the opportunity to have some stick (limited) time in a real aircraft and it was significantly different than AH. Right off the bat, the atmosphere and all the subtle effects associated with it make stability a much greater issue than it is in AH. One of my first experiences was noticing how I over corrected for every bump/shift etc.. that the aircraft experienced.

The main difference is that your seat was moving. There is a big difference in the subjective feel of things like stalls when you very suddenly drop down instead of simply noticing the view changed a bit on your monitor.

It's not the flight model that's too stable in AH, it's the air and the chair.

[Ardy123]

The main difference is that your seat was moving. There is a big difference in the subjective feel of things like stalls when you very suddenly drop down instead of simply noticing the view changed a bit on your monitor.

It's not the flight model that's too stable in AH, it's the air and the chair.

correct me if I am wrong, in AH, the atmosphere is static, ie you flying in an enormous gymnasium with perfect heating of the floor and no drafts at any alt.

[FLS]

The air is still unless you set wind and there is never turbulence. Maybe sometime in the future... 

[WING47]

I had the opportunity to have some stick (limited) time in a real aircraft and it was significantly different than AH.

Maybe because it's oh... I don't know......a real plane and not something in a video game!