F4U turn performance, flaps, the real plane, etc (discussion)

[mtnman]

I'd largely started skimming when I saw the thread descend into the standard circular argument, so I must have missed when you said it, lol.

One thing HTC could always do is program a delay on certain controls to represent the time it would take the pilot to actually move his hands to make the adjustments, and then modify it based on current G-load (I can't imagine it would be very easy to release the throttle and reach the flap control if you're in the middle of a 6G turn). Maybe it doesn't have to be an EXACT timing of how long it would take, but enough so that players don't get an instant benefit. That could address a lot of complaints about flap usage (but then add the spring-loaded flaps on plains like the Corsair and Hellcat, and autoflaps on the machines that actually had them).

What would be REALLY cool is to put an animated pilot model in the cockpit that you could actually see flip those switches and turn the dials (Star Citizen looks like it will have that). But say good-bye to your frame rates, lol!

I for one would absolutely love to see those types of things modeled.  The eye-candy aspects would be great too, but the timing and effects on the pilot would be fantastic additions.  Talk about realism and immersion...

And yup, if those things were modeled it sure would be nice to see the spring systems modeled on the flaps too.

[titanic3]

It won't work.

A: With some button set up and tinkering, you can easily have rudder, throttle, flaps, and everything else a few inches apart. If there was an animation for each movement, your cartoon pilot would be switching back and forth between animations so quickly it would be like watching a freak show.

B: If a delay is added, so to avoid the animation problems in A, then how will you get the timing right? Some one, somewhere down the road is going to make a video of them working the throttle, flaps, etc etc faster than the animation can. In that case, some players will be handicapped while some may get a boost depending on the "delay times".

While it would be really neat to see, it's going to affect gameplay for the worse. Fast players will complain they're being handicapped and slow players will get an unfair advantage in a situation where they could've easily lost because they did not work the controls fast enough.

I can see it working with something like motion detectors (Xbox Kinect/Wii style), where if you're fast, so is your cartoon pilot and vice versa if you're slow. But that won't likely happen....ever.

[Saxman]

That's why player hand/finger speed shouldn't factor into it at all. The activation of the control is delayed a set length of time for all players, with perhaps a variation depending on the aircraft to account for the different placement of the controls in the cockpit.

Everyone would be affected by the mechanics equally.

[titanic3]

That's why player hand/finger speed shouldn't factor into it at all. The activation of the control is delayed a set length of time for all players, with perhaps a variation depending on the aircraft to account for the different placement of the controls in the cockpit.

Everyone would be affected by the mechanics equally.

Until some one proves that they can work the controls faster than what is set in game. So to the people who can do it faster, it's unrealistic. And vice versa if the animations are too quick and it's unrealistic for people who can't do it.

How are you going to set the delay so that everyone or at least, most people, will be happy?

[Saxman]

Until some one proves that they can work the controls faster than what is set in game. So to the people who can do it faster, it's unrealistic. And vice versa if the animations are too quick and it's unrealistic for people who can't do it.

How are you going to set the delay so that everyone or at least, most people, will be happy?

Control X is activated by player > Delay Y + G-Load Modifier > Function Z occurs.

It's not going to outright eliminate the advantage players with HOTAS setups have over those who may only have stick + keyboard, but I would argue removing the instant reaction times will actually balance out that advantage to at least a small degree.

[MOSQ]

The F4Us are unusual in one respect from almost all other planes in the game, when full flaps are out their dps is Faster than with no flaps. So not only does the turn radius get smaller, as do all planes, but how fast they get around the circle is quicker, which very few other planes can do. A couple of planes, like the LA-7, LA-5, Ki-84, 109-F can hold the same dps rate, or maybe .1 faster than with no flaps, but the F4Us pick up a full 1 degree or more. The F4U4 has the typical loss of rate seen in other planes.  Only the P-38 picks up that much dps with flaps out.

Here's a few examples:
P-51 NF 18.3; FF 16.4
P-47M NF 18.9; FF 18.0
FW-190A5 NF 18.8; FF 17.6
Spit 16 NF 23.5; FF 20.4
Ki-84 NF 22.5; FF 22.5
NIK2-J NF 22.5; FF 22.0
Bf109-K4 NF 19.6; FF 19.6
C205 NF 20.0; FF 17.7
LA-7 NF 20.8; FF 20.8
Yak 9-U NF 20.4; FF 17.7


F4U-1 NF 18.3; FF 19.6
F4U-1A NF 18.1; FF 19.3

F4U-1D NF 18.3; FF 18.9
F4U-1C NF 18.0; FF 18.6

F4U4 NF 20.0; FF 19.6


P-38L NF 18.9; FF 20.0

[lyric1]

Hand book.

http://id.scribd.com/doc/48028870/1944-AN-01-45HA-1-Pilot-s-Handbook-of-Flight-Operating-Instructions-Navy-Models-F4U-1-F4U-1C-F4U-1D-F3A-1-F3A-1D-FG-1-FG-1D-British-Models-Co

[nrshida]

The F4Us are unusual in one respect from almost all other planes in the game, when full flaps are out their dps is Faster than with no flaps.

You wouldn't expect that with plain flaps.


Actually I expected this to be a characteristic of the Westland Whirlwind too:-

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,313538.0.html

[mtnman]

You wouldn't expect that with plain flaps.

It does sound odd on the surface at least.

I wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that due to the smaller radius the distance to fly one degree is less with full flaps than with none?  Theoretically, the plane flying the smaller radius at a slower speed could still have a higher DPS...

I'd expect to see the same thing with other planes though.  I guess if the radios doesn't improve enough we wouldn't see the same effect.

I also remember reading that the F4U sees better performance with 3 notches of flap than with 5.  I wonder why we're not finding the same thing?  Maybe it just wasn't tested?

[MK-84]

Slightly off topic...but then again maybe not.

     I've always been under the impression that the F4U-C's cannon armament was heavier and as such reduced performance.  Ours in game certainly feels much more sluggish.  But looking at the handbook Lyric just posted the Gross weight (full fuel and armament minus external stores) differs from the F4U-D only 35lbs with the -C being the heavier.

[FLS]

I also remember reading that the F4U sees better performance with 3 notches of flap than with 5.  I wonder why we're not finding the same thing?  Maybe it just wasn't tested?

I think MOSQ was just comparing none and full. Here's another handy graphic from Badboy.

[mtnman]

I think MOSQ was just comparing none and full. Here's another handy graphic from Badboy.

Yes, that's it!

[Chalenge]

What is the fastest possible speed at which you can drop each level of flap in the F4U?

[nrshida]

MOSQ can you confirm the configuration for your test with the Ki-84 is 25% fuel, full ammo on the deck?

[mtnman]

What is the fastest possible speed at which you can drop each level of flap in the F4U?

First Notch-        250 mph

Second Notch-    225 mph

Third Notch-       200 mph

Fourth Notch-     175 mph

Fifth Notch-       150 mph