F4U turn performance, flaps, the real plane, etc (discussion)

[nrshida]

It does sound odd on the surface at least.

I wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that due to the smaller radius the distance to fly one degree is less with full flaps than with none?  Theoretically, the plane flying the smaller radius at a slower speed could still have a higher DPS...

I'd expect to see the same thing with other planes though.  I guess if the radios doesn't improve enough we wouldn't see the same effect.

I also remember reading that the F4U sees better performance with 3 notches of flap than with 5.  I wonder why we're not finding the same thing?  Maybe it just wasn't tested?

I would be grateful if someone with a deep technical understanding of aircraft dynamics could explain this because I thought I understood that Fowler flaps increased the turn rate and given they are reasonably large on the Ki-84 I'm rather sceptical about the comparable rates. How can the DPS be the same with a good deal more lifting surface available, longer chord, a better camber and a slightly higher thrust to drag ratio?

Also I can only assume with the Corsair that the flaps alter the camber to a very favourable degree since apparently the plain flap is one of the less efficient solutions (not the worst). Or is it to do with the speed combinations of deployment which are rather high? This is what I found interesting about the Whirlwind, that the flap could be deployed at so high a speed, around or just below instantaneous corner speed if memory serves.

Sorry for the minor hijack, but any opportunity to learn...

[Badboy]

This old thread discusses flap performance in general and for some of the F4U series aircraft so may be of interest:

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,271266.0.html

Hope that helps...

Badboy

[MOSQ]

MOSQ can you confirm the configuration for your test with the Ki-84 is 25% fuel, full ammo on the deck?

Yes, at 500 ft.

First Notch-        250 mph

Second Notch-    225 mph

Third Notch-       200 mph

Fourth Notch-     175 mph

Fifth Notch-       150 mph

The F4U handbook says to never drop flaps faster than 200 Knots which equals 230.15 MPH. At that speed they "blow up" which we call auto-retract.

Comparing the in game to the F4U handbook:
IG: 250, Handbook 230 (200 Knots)
IG: 225, Handbook 230 (200 Knots)
IG: 200, Handbook 195 (170 knots)
IG: 175, Handbook: 166 (145 knots)
IG: 150, Handbook: 149 (130 knots)

IG weight by E6B, full fuel, full ammo, no external weapons vs Handbook

F4U1-C IG: 12,471 lbs, Handbook 12,063 lbs
F4U1-D IG: 12,176 lbs, Handbook 12,028 lbs.

This is assuming the handbook wasn't superseded later by an updated version, which it may have been.

[Chalenge]

I want to point out that I do not believe the flaps are of such a great benefit to the F4U. At least, not as much as the gear are. To understand what I mean you have to look at the cycle time of the landing gear of a real F4U and the landing gear of the F4U in game. Realize also that there is a center-of-gravity issue in real life that becomes much more manageable because of the reduced cycle time, as well as a drag issue that is likewise greatly influenced by the sequence.

Someone wished for fast landing gear speeds so they could go from zero-to-hero in less time. Now the gamers can use it to their advantage.

[mtnman]

Someone wished for fast landing gear speeds so they could go from zero-to-hero in less time. Now the gamers can use it to their advantage.

I think it's worth noting that I don't know of ANY of the top-notch F4U sticks making much use of the F4U gear at all...

I've already spelled out how I feel about the flaps and controls in general, but I really only see newbie sticks that play around with the gear on a regular basis.  As a matter of fact, in all my F4U training while I was a trainer I taught my students to keep their gear up in the wings where it belongs.  IMO, using it in a fight is seldom helpful, and often detrimental.

When I see an opponent in an F4U dropping gear I'm immediately disappointed knowing that I'm going to have an easy kill rather than a serious fight.

Are you seeing it regularly used in a gamey manner?

[Chalenge]

Obviously, or I would not have said anything.

[nrshida]

I want to point out that I do not believe the flaps are of such a great benefit to the F4U.

 

[Chalenge]

58 sorties and 28 kills. . . 

[nrshida]

58 sorties and 28 kills. . . 

Oh oh please stop, the pain, the agony, using my score to dismiss my emoticon commentary on your absurd comment 

152 kills, 4 deaths = P-51D & Tempest picker who never slows down to see flaps deployed anyway. 

[Noir]

 

Most late war american planes greatly benefit from their flaps, actually without them they would be hopeless in aces high 

[Chalenge]

Oh oh please stop, the pain, the agony, using my score to dismiss my emoticon commentary on your absurd comment  

152 kills, 4 deaths = P-51D & Tempest picker who never slows down to see flaps deployed anyway.  

This is why no one takes you seriously. Picking doesnt exist. Its an excuse of weak minded individuals that consider themselves victims. They are.

[Noir]

This is why no one takes you seriously. Picking doesnt exist. Its an excuse of weak minded individuals that consider themselves victims. They are.

sorry but I take him more seriously than you, he is the DA sensei, while you are nothing I can remember of.

I'm the current #2 fighter score tard so I must be right, right?

[nrshida]

This is why no one takes you seriously. Picking doesnt exist. Its an excuse of weak minded individuals that consider themselves victims. They are.

Ha ha ha ha ha. I take people taking me seriosly about as seriously as I take my score. You know I had to look it up to even check you were talking about me.

I thought the game was to look at the other's score and make deductions about the other person, a game you started so you could dismiss my laugh at your b/s comment about the F4U's flaps. If you want an argument with me Chalenge, don't worry, you'll get it.

Picking is a term created by players of this game to describe a pattern of behaviour. Given your recent exchange with Ink where you failed to assert your nonsensical comment that picking doesn't exist, and then you insulting him personally, including his family because he didn't agree with you, you look to me EXACTLY like a P-51D picker and one that knows it too.

Victims, don't make me laugh. If everyone flew a P-51D like you you'd get absolutely no kills at all. Pickers prey on people engaged in ACM fights pure and simple. There is no nobility to it whatsoever.

I find your score one of the most unimpressive things I have ever seen in Aces High. You are THAT fragile that you can't stand to get shot down? 

Maybe if you ask really nice SirNuke could give you some P-51D flying lessons.

[Saxman]

I think it's worth noting that I don't know of ANY of the top-notch F4U sticks making much use of the F4U gear at all...

I do it under two situations: Bombing runs, or an initial dive into a melee if I'm coming in with a substantial altitude advantage. Short or shallow dives I'll keep them tucked.

I want to point out that I do not believe the flaps are of such a great benefit to the F4U. At least, not as much as the rudder is.

Fixed.

[RTHolmes]

Badboy's linked topic above on flaps and the hog is pure gold (as usual ) and is essentially the answer to the OP, if you havent bothered to read it yet you should!

Here it is again:

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,271266.0.html