Operation Market Garden

[Butcher]

Before we go on a huge "British bashing" campaign.
I would hardly call it "Brits being cocky". Britain was perhaps arrogant, but even then, if it HAD been old men and children.... it would have worked. I think that German resistance played more of a role than Britains arrogance.   

Its not a British bashing campaign, General's take risks - this was a risk to punch a door open into Germany - quite a few factors simply made it fail from the beginning.

The arrogance part about it is Monte claimed the operation was a success, when in fact it was quite opposite.

[MiloMorai]

Virgil

"Unlike the American airborne divisions in the area, British forces at Arnhem ignored the local Dutch resistance. There was a good reason for this: Britain's spy network in the Netherlands had been thoroughly and infamously compromised — the so-called England game, which had only been discovered in April 1944. Perhaps assuming that the Dutch resistance would be similarly penetrated, British intelligence took pains to minimize all civilian contact."

British paratroopers weren't the only ones dropped too far from there objective.

"The decision to drop the 82nd Airborne Division on the Groesbeek Heights, several kilometres from the Nijmegen Bridge, has been questioned because it resulted in a long delay in its capture."

It didn't help that Ike wanted a 'broad front advance' against all German forces which diverted supplies and manpower away from M-G.

[SmokinLoon]

I've researched this issue multiple times and the first thing anyone needs to remember is that as are judging, Operation: Market-Garden, with the luxury of hindsight.  This goes for ALL historical events.  Remember that.

To be forced to pick one or the other (fault of British of tenacity of Germans), is a bit harsh because there were hundreds of variables in the entire campaign that could have swayed the outcome.  Would the Poles have made a difference if they had not been delayed?  Etc etc.  This is a fun topic to debate and discuss, but I highly suggest that instead of watching a Hollywood movie made for entertainment called "A Bridge Too Far", to instead read the book written by Cornelius Ryan of the same title.  I do not believe the "arrogance" of the British was represented accurately in the movie (or even in the book), there are many sources that claim that the intelligence admitted not knowing that there was an SS Division "refitting" outside of Arnhem.  They did know there were remnants of something, or more probably a Volksturm (militia) made up of 2nd rate troops (older or otherwise disqualified from military service).  Those intelligence reports and corresponding analysis were not made of arrogance but more so of "quid pro quo" rubber stamp reaction.  Which ever route one wants to go (British failure or German success), the operation was genius (lay a carpet of paras and send the armor over top), and if the 30th would have been able to make it to Arhem in time the outcome would have been different, the "Bridge Too Far" would not be a term we all so quickly would identify.      

[SmokinLoon]

Its not a British bashing campaign, General's take risks - this was a risk to punch a door open into Germany - quite a few factors simply made it fail from the beginning.

The arrogance part about it is Monte claimed the operation was a success, when in fact it was quite opposite.

"Quite opposite" is not how I would look at it one bit.  No, the ultimate goal was not achieved but there were many other ramifications that occurred because of the thrust the British armor made during that operation.  The Germans had to pull lots of other resources to plug the new "front", that had am impact on operations down south more than we'll ever be able to measure.  In the big picture I think it was certainly not a failure, just not a complete success.  Topics such as this have too big of a gray area to be so specific.   

[RngFndr]

Battle was lost before it even started..

Yes there was British Arrogance of the same kind that
resulted in the Somme Slaughter..

Not listening to the intel on the ground, and the whole Radio
Commo botch job, just sealed the deal..  

Both SS Hohenstoufen and Frundsberg were in the area Refitting..
They landed right on top of them.. Case closed..

I will say, they did very well getting as far as they did.. But
overall, this was like the German Ardennes Offensive..
Doomed from the start!

[Butcher]

The Operation is what it is, we can't change the out come - its still a "Bridge to far". I always enjoyed the tasteful arguments on market garden, one of those few topics in history of WW2 that has so many holes you can easily fight a debate about.

/camping in a GV isn't so bad when you can throw a few questions out and get a chat going while you wait

[zack1234]

"Quite opposite" is not how I would look at it one bit.  No, the ultimate goal was not achieved but there were many other ramifications that occurred because of the thrust the British armor made during that operation.  The Germans had to pull lots of other resources to plug the new "front", that had am impact on operations down south more than we'll ever be able to measure.  In the big picture I think it was certainly not a failure, just not a complete success.  Topics such as this have too big of a gray area to be so specific.   

My god someone who reads books

[zack1234]

Was General Mark Clark arrogant?

Or should we ignore that one, because he was American.

[RngFndr]

Monte would have made better use of the Airborne Forces by using them
to clear the estuary islands blocking the way to Antwerp Harbor..
Thus Relieving the Supply Strangle coming from the Normandy Beaches!

DUH

[Butcher]

Was General Mark Clark arrogant?

Or should we ignore that one, because he was American.

If Monte was American then you can blame the american's, but in reality the operation is what it is.

[SmokinLoon]

My god someone who reads books

I've read lots of them and written many papers on the subject matter.  I actually earned an informal degree (recognized by my Alma mater only) in WWII.  I had two professors on a regular basis for a multitude of military classes that had either taught at West Point or the Citadel, and neither were satisfied with mediocrity or simplicity when I was researching WWII (much of my studies were independent).  They were the hardest B's and C's I ever earned (never did earn an A), but the knowledge I gained and the ability to take what I learned away is immeasurable.        

[SmokinLoon]

Monte would have made better use of the Airborne Forces by using them
to clear the estuary islands blocking the way to Antwerp Harbor..
Thus Relieving the Supply Strangle coming from the Normandy Beaches!

DUH

You should go on an be a General's Chief of Staff, you is smart.   

Hindsight is wunnerful, isn't it.   

That point has been made before, but there was enough data showing that the Germans in Antwerp were on their last bit of supplies, they had been cut off for how long by the time Market-Garden took place? Ultimately, the momentum was going fast enough for all things considered (except for Patton), that Antwerp would have not mattered either way.     I think using he paras as they were was almost as perfect as they could have been.  That is my opinion. 

[RngFndr]

Hindsight is wunnerful, isn't it.   
That point has been made before

Well, all these points have been made before, I haven't seen anything new, from you either..
Hindsight??? Well, Monkey was the "Field Marshal", and one would think looking at the map
he could SEE THE OBVIOUS..

Sun Tzu, called it "foresight", you would think a "Field Marshal" would have it..
But Monkey was too busy Glory hunting, trying to be the first into Germany..
Got lots of elite troops killed for his vanity..

Truly, he isn't the only general that did that in the war.. Lots of others!

[zack1234]

I've read lots of them and written many papers on the subject matter.  I actually earned an informal degree (recognized by my Alma mater only) in WWII.  I had two professors on a regular basis for a multitude of military classes that had either taught at West Point or the Citadel, and neither were satisfied with mediocrity or simplicity when I was researching WWII (much of my studies were independent).  They were the hardest B's and C's I ever earned (never did earn an A), but the knowledge I gained and the ability to take what I learned away is immeasurable.        

Books are fun

[bortas1]

  I'm curious zack are you a brit? I'm wondering how the brits view the operation? and saying that following the guide lines from the tread.
if i said any thing about mark clark it would be hijacking the thread. so....