Operation Market Garden

[ALFAMEGA51]

The Operation would have been more successful had John Wayne led it.

 

[Guppy35]

In the end Ike signed off on Market-Garden.

The relationships and egos involved in the Allied Command is a research project of it's own.   Monty very much continually pushed the idea of a single ground commander, which he of course saw would be him.  It eventually lead to some incredible friction that almost lead to the break up of Allied Command when Ike got to the point he was going to make the Joint Chief's choose between he and Monty.  Monty's Chief of Staff got wind of this from Ike's Chief of Staff and was able to put out the fire, which was by finally getting Monty to realize that he was never going to run the whole show with the majority of the fighting being done by US troops and the majority of the supplies coming from the US.

This was post Market Garden during the Battle of the Bulge.

But Ike did have Monty continually pressing for a single thrust instead of Ike's preference for a broad front.   And of course you had the egos of Bradley, Simpson, Patton and others to sooth as well.  When Monty was given the go ahead on Market Garden, it basically stopped those other guys in their tracks for lack of supplies.

Also understand that the battle of egos was not a British vs American thing, it was individual generals.  Air Marshall Tedder who was head of Allied Air Forces in Europe for Ike, was British and he wanted Monty sacked more then once.  Beddel-Smith who was Ike's chief of staff spent a lot of his time working with Monty's Chief of Staff to keep Monty in the game.  Monty's big fear was that he would be replaced by Alexander, who was in command of British forces in the MTO.  It was when he finally realized that was a serious possibility that he finally quit pounding on Ike to appoint a single ground commander.

All that being said, in his quest to lead the single thrust and be the first over the Rhine and into Germany, Monty oversold the plan and ignored much of the intel and the British Airborne guys paid the price.

Ike had the final say however and he signed off on it, so it can't be laid completely on Monty either.  My impression has always been that the Brits have been far harder on Monty about Market Garden then the Americans, in particular the British Airborne guys who got hung out to dry.

Cornelius Ryan was one of my favorite authors when I was really getting into the WW2 history stuff back when I was a kid.  I wrote a report on "A Bridge Too Far" and Market Garden in high school.  Jeez that was a long time ago

The book is far better then the movie, although at the time, the movie did take things up a notch in terms of trying to make it look right. 

[MarineUS]

  John Wayne is our Greatest Combat Veteran. 

Clint Eastwood would smoke John Wayne. 

[RTHolmes]

bah ... David Niven!

[Mar]

Clint Eastwood would smoke John Wayne. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRwIs9hfYAo

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Virgil

"Unlike the American airborne divisions in the area, British forces at Arnhem ignored the local Dutch resistance. There was a good reason for this: Britain's spy network in the Netherlands had been thoroughly and infamously compromised — the so-called England game, which had only been discovered in April 1944. Perhaps assuming that the Dutch resistance would be similarly penetrated, British intelligence took pains to minimize all civilian contact."

British paratroopers weren't the only ones dropped too far from there objective.

"The decision to drop the 82nd Airborne Division on the Groesbeek Heights, several kilometres from the Nijmegen Bridge, has been questioned because it resulted in a long delay in its capture."

It didn't help that Ike wanted a 'broad front advance' against all German forces which diverted supplies and manpower away from M-G.

The British intelligence people, Urquardt in particular, had photo recon that showed Panzer units in the area, never mind what the Dutch Underground told them.

What Market Garden was short of (other than good common sense) was planes to put all the airborne troops in as quickly as possible. Since the 101st and the 82nd were involved in Market Garden, what Eisenhower had going on following Operation Overlord was not taking the assets they needed away from Market Garden. Apparently 30 Corps had all the armor they could possibly hope to get up the road to the bridges. "Not enough supplies and manpower" is an excuse, and a poor one, it is not a reason.

[LCADolby]

A Bridge too Far  Love that film, it has a fantastic cast

[mthrockmor]

British theory.

The Brits had long felt that all efforts and resources should support a deep thrust all the way from Normandy to the Rhine. As this thrust penetrated deeper German defenses would natural retreat to avoid the potential of being enveloped. The Brits felt it would cause the whole front to collapse. Tradition said brooad based attack with numerous surgical strikes supporting regional activity.

Market Garden demonstrated the difficulty of the former theory.

Boo

[Shuffler]

yeah too bad he only fought in the movies.  he actually never served.


semp

He was of far greater value in the movies. While serving is good, it is not everything.

[nrshida]

I'm wondering how the brits view the operation?

I think it was a bold tactical gambit to shorten the war with a more intelligent approach than simply wearing the Germans down. A bold plan and Montgomery was bold enough to try it and bold enough to fail.

Montgomery was a National hero and a tactical genius. This man took a rifle bullet in the chest in the Great War and survived and was decorated for conspicuous gallantry for clearing an enemy trench with a bayonet attack. Meanwhile Adolf Hitler cowered in his trench finger painting and writing to mummy about his struggle to mix the proper shade of poo-brown.

Sun Tzu fought small scale engagements which he directed from the rear while sipping Earl Ghey tea and wearing a gingham dress and army boots 

We know you Americans dislike Montgomery, this opinion notably originates in reaction to his post-war vocal criticism of aspects of American command. Previously your nation chose to honour him therefore rather adding weight to Zack's point.

Same business with the continual comments towards the French being cowards. This is ignorant, ill-informed, inaccurate and disrespectful. If you are going to revise history to support current policy then you can expect the ramifications of increasingly becoming isolated and divergent in policy, culture and doctrine from the other nations in the world.

If you are asked to review a film then your class is Media Studies and not a History class. If you are unable to gather and analyse data for yourself and are satisfied assimilating what is packaged, pre-processed and presented for you then what use is all the 'freedom' you keep banging on about?

[guncrasher]

bah ... David Niven!

naw Roger Moore would smoke all of them fools.  he fought from ww2 all the way to wild geese.  but if you go for a good looking guy that wasnt too afraid, I would say the scene with robert redford crossing the river was the most memorable along with the "would you like some chocolate, it's very good.."

semp

[RngFndr]

Was thinking of the scene in "Band of Brothers".. When the 101 Sergeant is on the fender of the Lead British XXX Corp tank, (a Ronson), tellin him there is a Tiger behind the house up the road... Brit tanker looks hard thru his Binocs, says "I can't see it"..
The American Paratrooper tells him, "Put a couple shells into that house, you'll see him just fine!".. Brit Replies, "My orders say,
No inordinate destruction of Private Property!".. So he rolls down the road, and the tiger wastes him.. Good Oh!

 

[Plawranc]

I would carry on this argument but I cannot fight what is obviously


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWS-FoXbjVI


^^^

THIS. Mentality. Which is the only mentality the youth of the USA have.

[nrshida]

Was thinking of the scene in "Band of Brothers".. When the 101 Sergeant is on the fender of the Lead British XXX Corp tank, (a Ronson), tellin him there is a Tiger behind the house up the road... Brit tanker looks hard thru his Binocs, says "I can't see it"..
The American Paratrooper tells him, "Put a couple shells into that house, you'll see him just fine!".. Brit Replies, "My orders say,
No inordinate destruction of Private Property!".. So he rolls down the road, and the tiger wastes him.. Good Oh!

 

Is this fellow up here representative? He cannot distinguish fictional entertainment from reality. Prejudice shapes the media which in turn shapes prejudice.  

[RngFndr]

Is this fellow up here representative? He cannot distinguish fictional entertainment from reality. Prejudice shapes the media which in turn shapes prejudice.  

Well, it is a true account from the Guy on the Tank Fender, he is still alive to tell the tale..
Not for long tho!