Operation Market Garden

[zack1234]

I've been to Great Britain, as well as Germany. My opinions are hardly unfounded, as I have dealt directly with Europeans on their home ground. I've dealt with it on these boards, and other boards as well. There are actually Europeans, and British people in particular, on these boards, and within the flight sim community, for whom I have a great deal of respect, and in fact a particular fondness. It just happens that you are not even close to being among them. So that pretty much shoots your "prejudice" bravo sierra theory down in flames.

As far as you, personally, again, I could care less, I neither know you nor care about you. You began the derision, along with your buddy "zack1234", for whom I have no more use than I have for you. I care absolutely nothing about "credibility" with you or him, you'd have to matter and amount to something before that would happen. I'd have to care at least a little for it to be anything remotely "personal" about either of you. You may stick your "derision" where the sun never shines, and take your boy with you.

I don't have any use for blokes thats not my scene

Best not to talk  with this one Shida he seems to be in a bad mood about something, is he a noob?

[Butcher]

You are talking about Mark Bando's "Trigger Time" forum for the 101st.  He's the premier 101st historian of the last 30 years or so.  Not defending Band of Brothers or tearing it up.  In terms of the mini-series they did a good job.  As with any movie or series, characters got left out, events were twisted a bit to fit and blended into characters that were left in.  In terms of armchair nit pickers like myself, there were things that were 'wrong' in the book and in the series.  That being said I think both are very worthy efforts.  

Ambrose relied very much on the recollections of the surviving members of E-Company.  The whole story of the Niland Brothers, that Saving Private Ryan is loosely based on was from the recollections of Don Mallarkey and the book written by the 101st Chaplain Father Sampson.  Both in the end got it wrong in terms of the exact details.  That doesn't mean they lied, but they reported what they'd heard or seen at the time.

Its understandable certain details can be messed up - I think band of brothers attempted to be as accurate as possible, it wasn't only after the show came out certain details like Albert Blithe came to light.
At least BoB made an attempt, unlike certain movies about Pearl Harbor who used nuclear class ships in the movie...

I won't name that movie out of respect, i did get laid during it so it did serve one purpose, for historical part - nadda.

[Guppy35]

nrshida,  are you suggesting that the egos and infighting among the commanding generals was a postwar fabrication?  No one is saying it was purely an English issue.  It was on both sides and Ike was left with trying to coddle and appease his subordinates who were all seen as 'heros' to their own countries.   The battle for control between Bradly/Patton and Montgomery was an ongoing struggle going back to Sicily.  The egos were huge and the desire for 'glory' the same in all of them.  Considering the resources the US had involved at the time in the ETO it's amazing that Ike allowed the Market Garden op to go if for no other reasons then political and public opinion back home.

I'm not sure if you read my previous response in this thread, but it ultimately lead to a showdown with Ike and Monty where Ike reached the point where he'd drafted the letter to the Joint Chiefs saying either he or Monty would have to go as he was tired of Monty continually pushing his own agenda.  Monty's chief of staff was able to get Monty to realize that not even Churchill could save Monty on that one as there was no question which General would be replaced.  Monty finally shut up and backed down to save his own command and not be replaced by Alexander.

That's not a condemnation of Monty or any of the other Generals.  I imagine to command armies like that takes an ego the size of a mountain.  In the end he overshot at Market Garden and it's safe to conclude that part of the reason was his desire to prove he should be the overall land commander in Europe, thus putting Patton, Bradley, Simpson and the other US leaders and Armies under his command.

There are a ton of books out there on the land campaign in the ETO and the never ending ego wars that Ike had to manage.  Throw in De Gaulle and I have no idea how Ike kept them all together.

Understand that Monty had the British Chief of Staff Brooke in his ear too and Brooke was no fan of Ike so Monty was continually pushed to forward his agenda to be named overall land commander.

[guncrasher]

So far, the only truly inaccurate thing I've found in "Band of Brothers", after reading dozens of books related to the 101st, is the segment regarding Albert Blythe. Albert Blythe saw the sniper, but did not shoot him. The sniper shot Blythe in the collar bone, not the neck. Albert Blythe did not die in 1947, but in fact died nearly 20 years later of a heart attack. He was a decorated sergeant at the time of his death, having served with distinction for more than 20 years, including a tour in Korea.

Montgomery, and the British, have earned the scathing comments. They've made plenty of their own, especially those by Montgomery himself. Before you offer up your sermon about how we should hold our allies in such high regard, you might give it to the British first.

you mean lt dyke did died on the attack on foy?  seems strange that they finally buried him in 1985.


semp

[Guppy35]

you mean lt dyke did died on the attack on foy?  seems strange that they finally buried him in 1985.


semp

Where did you see that?  He ended up in a staff position after he was relieved at Foy.  I don't recall the mini-series killing him off either.  He just froze up and Spiers was sent to take over the attack.

[Butcher]

Where did you see that?  He ended up in a staff position after he was relieved at Foy.  I don't recall the mini-series killing him off either.  He just froze up and Spiers was sent to take over the attack.

Think he misread this LOL Dyke was never killed or wounded. He was CO of Easy Company in november 44, during the assault on foy he ordered a platoon on a flanking mission, then ordered them to take cover in the open area which they were about to get slaughtered. He froze in combat and this is when Winters threw Ronald Speirs into the battle to fix the situation.

From his Book Winters was not happy with Dyke, he wasn't even invited to 101st airbourne get togethers after the war.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

you mean lt dyke did died on the attack on foy?  seems strange that they finally buried him in 1985.


semp

A little lost are you?

[zack1234]

Those Ambrose books are very good

[nrshida]

I've been to Great Britain, as well as Germany. My opinions are hardly unfounded, as I have dealt directly with Europeans on their home ground. I've dealt with it on these boards, and other boards as well. There are actually Europeans, and British people in particular, on these boards, and within the flight sim community, for whom I have a great deal of respect, and in fact a particular fondness. It just happens that you are not even close to being among them. So that pretty much shoots your "prejudice" bravo sierra theory down in flames.

Well you think 'Band of Brothers' is a documentary so I am naturally absolutely bereft at the loss of respect from someone of your intellectual calibre  

No doubt the British people and European people that you're fond of haven't criticised anything American yet. It's all it seems to take to set you off.

As far as you, personally, again, I could care less, I neither know you nor care about you. You began the derision, along with your buddy "zack1234", for whom I have no more use than I have for you. I care absolutely nothing about "credibility" with you or him, you'd have to matter and amount to something before that would happen. I'd have to care at least a little for it to be anything remotely "personal" about either of you. You may stick your "derision" where the sun never shines, and take your boy with you.

Our derision began in direct response to disrespectful comments most especially 'arrogant British' and the like. If you're going to throw these insults around and expect nothing in return then you are even more stupid than you appear to be. We are not interested, in your evaluation of how much merit you attribute to us, we have as much right to speak here as you do.

Thanks for getting personal and insulting though. It does rather prove Zack's point doesn't it old chap?  

nrshida,  are you suggesting that the egos and infighting among the commanding generals was a postwar fabrication?  No one is saying it was purely an English issue.  It was on both sides and Ike was left with trying to coddle and appease his subordinates who were all seen as 'heros' to their own countries.

No of course not Guppy. I believe my comment was that American public opinion towards Montgomery's achievements changed considerably after the war when he became vocally critical about elements of American command. The history of Monty and all of this is well documented & we are not debating any of it. We have no argument with those of you who have actually studied this and reached the level of understanding that you and Butcher and some of the others are displaying. What's set Zack and I off in this thread is a basic lack of respect for our culture and history.




 

[guncrasher]

A little lost are you?

no look at this at 9:47 they show a body that kinda looks like lt dyke then quickly pan the camera somewhere else, then When Lipton is walking back after the battle and he passes Bull carrying Peconte, Peconte says "Is it true what they said about Lt. Dyke?"; Lipton says "Ya"; Perconte says "Thank God for small mercies."  it is implied that lt dyke died at foy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6floyf8QAU

then while they're listening to the choir at the church they show norman dike disappearing along with some others who died.  look at this at 2:09  it shows him gone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_kiJryvmZY

they dont actually say it but it always implies it that lt dyke died at foy.

semp

[danny76]

1. No.

2. Uh, yeah, we'll start with the British having a little respect, which they did not even have during the war for the most part.

For the most part they didn't have US forces involved in order to earn their respect 

[danny76]

I've been to Great Britain, as well as Germany. My opinions are hardly unfounded, as I have dealt directly with Europeans on their home ground. I've dealt with it on these boards, and other boards as well. There are actually Europeans, and British people in particular, on these boards, and within the flight sim community, for whom I have a great deal of respect, and in fact a particular fondness. It just happens that you are not even close to being among them. So that pretty much shoots your "prejudice" bravo sierra theory down in flames.

As far as you, personally, again, I could care less, I neither know you nor care about you. You began the derision, along with your buddy "zack1234", for whom I have no more use than I have for you. I care absolutely nothing about "credibility" with you or him, you'd have to matter and amount to something before that would happen. I'd have to care at least a little for it to be anything remotely "personal" about either of you. You may stick your "derision" where the sun never shines, and take your boy with you.

Do everyone a favour and go and take your head for a dump 

[guncrasher]

Do everyone a favour and go and take your head for a dump 

show some respect for the guy he's been to england, he knows how everything works over there.


semp

[Plawranc]

Virgil

May I ask.. just out of curiosity

If the British did not have respect during the war... If Monty was an incompetent fool... That You know the ins and outs of both Germany and the UK and assuming of course you speak for America as a whole....

why were you three years late?

[zack1234]

I am now reading John Buchan's ""Oliver Cromwell".

I have not been away for three years who told you that?