Gun Accidents.....how safe are you? really?

[homersipes]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJHgYTi0By0
not only are people unsafe but litter bugs, I used to shoot here growing up, I guess it got closed someboby got killed up there from what I read.  One time we went up to shoot and everyone was cleaning up the range because the city of colorado springs was going to shut it down if it werent cleaned THAT day.  Glad we spent 10 hours cleaning it up
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUxjiQec3UA
this is the kind of retards that used to go up there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aiVqrxCaRI

[Flench]

I will have to find someone with a Glock but untill then and after I shoot one there's no way I give up my S&W 9mm for one .

[SmokinLoon]

You do realize that the article you listed does not indicate that the Glock per se is a cause or contributor to poor shooting. It along with the other two weapons listed in the article are all modified to have 12 lb trigger pulls for NYPD use. The author's premise is that the trigger pull is excessively strong to allow "good" accuracy. I tend to agree, as far as target shooting is concerned. I am not a fan of a light SA trigger on a combat weapon, especially when the operator is expected to have more than one task to do when holding the weapon. It's one thing to just be shooting it, it's another when you have to chase someone or secure the person(s) in a hurry.

It's a fallacy to think that just because a person is a LEO and qualified with a weapon that they can really shoot well. Lots of cops are not gun people. I would say that in the case of NYC given the prevalent bias of the area towards firearms that almost all of the NYPD are not "gun people". I've known some that never fired their weapon unless it was for annual (or even less frequent) qualification. I talked to one armorer in my own Department who had to work on a gun one of the detectives carried. It fired 3 of 5 shots and couldn't be unloaded. The cartridges had been inside the gun so long the brass corroded and "welded" themselves to the chamber. Another "idiot" actually believed the wives tale that you could clean a stainless steel revolver in the dishwasher and was surprised when the gun was all locked up and non functional.

Other folks also forget there is a huge difference in shooting capability between shooting at a range and having to fire in defense of your life in a full crisis especially when it's totally unexpected. It's way different when the rounds can go both directions.

I'm with you, I'm not fond of light trigger pulls on combat or LEO guns either.  I was an LEO for 6 years, I understand fully the importance of a long enough and heavy enough trigger pull on a firearm.  I think the issues with the NYPD having such high volumes of shots fired and such a low hit % comes from 3 things: the abundance of ammo, a heavier than typical trigger pull, and most importantly the lack of training.  I can't imagine trying to fire a Glock with a 12lb trigger pull, I have a Webley Mk IV in .38/200 and that has a 13lb trigger pull but it is as smoooooth as can be.  There is nothing smooth about a Glock trigger.

FWIW, I'd say at least 3/4th of the deputies I worked with did not shoot any other time than their twice yearly qualification, it was obvious.  I've been shooting most of my life (I really got active when I turned 18 back in 1991), and I'm one of those guys that can usually pick up a firearm I've never shot and out shoot the owner of that specific gun.  I simply "get it".  I've shot enough over the years on my own, had enough LEO training, and let every minute I spent at Thunder Ranch sink in.  I have enough muscle memory and good habits that I have full confidence in my ability to use firearms.  You're exactly correct, just because someone is a LEO or has military experience doesn't mean jack.  We had a guy that could barely get his Glock out of his holster during one qualification shoot because he simply never worked the thumb break and the holster had crud inside enough to cause pressure on the gun to the point of almost having to cut it out.  Needless to say the chief firearms instructor was pissed.

Ultimately, it is obviously very important to have the most training in firearms as a person can stomach especially if they handle or may need to handle a firearm in their line of work (not to mention the magnitude of responsibility of simply owning a firearm), however I've seen the "high speed Mr. Tacti-Coolio stud" fold when faced with adversity, and the lowly pud who barely qualifies and looks like Barney Fife or Rosco P. Coltrane step right up and cover my arse when facing a threat.... ask me who I'd rather have at my side?  It isn't about how good a person shoots the paper target, it is about the ability of the person to use that gun when the adrenaline is flowing, seconds count, and a life is on the line.  That is not a fun position to be in.          

[SmokinLoon]

I will have to find someone with a Glock but untill then and after I shoot one there's no way I give up my S&W 9mm for one .

Do not be afraid to say no to the Glock kool-aid.  Seriously.  They are no better than most everything else out there, especially a S&W.  Do you have a 59xx, or a M&P?  Just curious.   

[nrshida]

Sorry about that, was about half asleep when posting. I've only got around 13 hours of sleep total for the past three days.

No need to apologise. I have had to adapt to this forum and make a sort of cut off point for myself otherwise King's law applies.  

Get to bed!  

[Flench]

Do not be afraid to say no to the Glock kool-aid.  Seriously.  They are no better than most everything else out there, especially a S&W.  Do you have a 59xx, or a M&P?  Just curious.   

The 59xx .

[Ripsnort]

Well, it was a good technical discussion until someone(s) had to pee in the pool (Mr.Biggles/Coombs)
Outta this thread. 

[FireDrgn]

Yes great, the more input and opinions the better. 

\


Safe and not safe are absolutes .The decocker can not be considered  safer.   The argument of safer could only exist in a situation where both guns are loaded and pointed in an unsafe direction.  Both guns would be not safe. Not knowing if the gun is loaded and in a safe direction would mean some one has already broken two safety rules. This would again make the gun not safe.


The design can not make anything safer were the individual can make mistakes.

Salute

[Buzzard7]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJHgYTi0By0
not only are people unsafe but litter bugs, I used to shoot here growing up, I guess it got closed someboby got killed up there from what I read.  One time we went up to shoot and everyone was cleaning up the range because the city of colorado springs was going to shut it down if it werent cleaned THAT day.  Glad we spent 10 hours cleaning it up
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUxjiQec3UA
this is the kind of retards that used to go up there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aiVqrxCaRI

Closed it down but the good news followed. Ft. Carson broke ground on a public range near gate 20. Will cost a few bucks to shoot there but it will be much safer with range officers. The money will go to a charity for wounded warriors.

[nrshida]

Just a couple more technical questions, if I may. What kind of force is needed on the firing pin to actually set off the primer? I see Pete over at The Armory Channel do his pencil test all the time and it looks like a fair bit.

Secondly what is the meaning of 'safe' on the safety catch to you? Do those of you that carry these weapons generally trust these mechanical safety features such as decockers, cocked indicators (hammers or protruding strikers), chamber indicators, firing pin blocks while you carry?

Thirdly in stripping the weapon do you simply rack the slide multiple times and then dry fire or are you also making a visual check of the chamber and giving it a little feel around with your little finger?

[GScholz]

 4.    Tro ikke at et sikret våpen kan behandles som om det ikke var ladd.
(4.   Do not think secured weapon can be treated as if it was not loaded.)

No mechanical safety device is 100% foolproof. They can break or wear out, just like any other machine.

[Maverick]

Smokin Loon, You got it exactly. It's a totally different situation when the elephant shows up. Some can shoulder the load, others can't through no conscious choice of their own. You learn to tell who is a reliable back up and who is just filling the space (or uniform) at the time. 


nrshida, that is a different kind of question since not all primers are made equally. In the US CCI has a reputation for having "hard" primers. They take more force to operate than say a Remington does. On the other hand I got some Israeli sub gun 9mm a couple decades ago. My Glock made only 1 out of 3 go bang on one hit where it was dead reliable on everything else. They had put in some darn hard primers in their, probably because a sub gun typically fires from an open bolt so you have all of the mass of the bolt behind the primer strike, not just the striker. My buddies S&W didn't do much better. I ended up selling the majority of the case of ammo to a buddy who did have a sub gun.

Lots of folks made a reliable revolver unreliable by backing off the main hammer spring tension screw (ala S&W revolvers) to make the trigger easier to operate. That can be very ungood if you really need it to go bang. It's better to have the trigger smoothed out rather than reduce the power going to the primer strike.

I don't know what the actual newton or impact pressure needed is but it's pretty substantial to be totally reliable.

I'm not a Glock fan boy per se, but I do have a lot of experience with them since it was my duty and off duty weapon for more than a decade. I was limited to what was authorized to carry. I learned to deal with it's shortcomings and they always performed, usually better than I can shoot. They are not my favorite but they are a long long way from the worst I've fired. I've also competed with wheel guns and 1911's and their clones. Each style has it's good and bad points. You just decide what works for you and use them.

Between the PD and the Army I've had the chance to pop caps in multiple styles of weaponry up to and including indirect fire major caliber launchers. It's great when you don't have to pay for the ammo, especially when the 105's cost more than $150 each and you go through pallets of them....

The tools are not the issue, it's the operator and that goes for everything from a rock up to the most advanced weapon system in the world. To date, the tools are not self actuating. It takes a person to operate or screw up with them.

[nrshida]

Thanks for all the information gun fellows. I have been recently tinkering with some elements of pistol design, mostly feeding and cycling, the core operation and especially the safety features. The information in this thread about people's experiences and knowledge is invaluable.

 

[colmbo]

Thanks for all the information gun fellows. I have been recently tinkering with some elements of pistol design, mostly feeding and cycling, the core operation and especially the safety features. The information in this thread about people's experiences and knowledge is invaluable.

 

Bottom line is it doesn't matter what kind of operating system, safety devices, etc. the firearm has...some bonehead will manage to have a negligent (no such thing as accidental) discharge.  The ND will occur because he improperly handled the weapon, not because of some failing of the weapon.

[nrshida]

Bottom line is it doesn't matter what kind of operating system, safety devices, etc. the firearm has...some bonehead will manage to have a negligent (no such thing as accidental) discharge.  The ND will occur because he improperly handled the weapon, not because of some failing of the weapon.

That may be true, but I still find most of the present solutions very bonehead-unfriendly. Everybody has the potential for moments of boneheadness. My work isn't really a serious commercial endeavour, more of an exercise. I have some ethical reservations designing weapons anyway, but you never know what you might come up with.